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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 87: It's my body and I can if I want to

981 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 14/09/2019 17:38

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon in August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850-1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
OohMrDarcy · 05/11/2019 09:26

Morning all

checking in for my Tuesday FD. Got a chicken casserole out of the freezer for later.

Aber - the nearest soft play to us was a pretty good one too, so glad my two are past those years though!

Welcome Sydney

43- vanilla is my thing normally too but this time of year I do enjoy the gingerbread!

Hey Filly - you may have gone up on the scales but I see it as your eyes opening to where you went wrong before and looking to plan better so it doesn't happen again, that is a win to me!

emcla · 05/11/2019 09:51

Aiming for a mini fd today. Sub tdee anyway. Good luck to all fasters today !

Arifa97 · 05/11/2019 10:07

Morning all,

Warmest welcome to all the new fasters! Was aiming for an FD today but was soo hungry and ate scrambled eggs on toast. So aiming for a mini instead hoping to stay under the 800.

BigChocFrenzy · 05/11/2019 11:23

A gorgeous sunny day here, despite the forecast of cold & rain Smile
So, I'll have a long Rhine walk and soak in the sun while it lasts

Good luck, MrD, emcla, arifa and any other Tuesday fasters

Sydney I recommend you tackle the snack habit first, as that can makea big difference:
Eat meals, spaced at least 4 hours apart, nothing between

Have plenty of protein & veg at mealtimes and cut back to sensible portions of starchy carbs,
which is 80-100g cooked weight or 1-2 slices bread
If you double carb, then halve the amount of each

If you want a "treat" like crisps or aclcohol, then have it as part of an NFD meal

No snacking / grazing EVER, not on NFDs, weekends either or even on holiday,
because otherwise the habit will always return

I posted upthread the scientific reasons why Mosely & other fasting experts recommend this

OP posts:
Whattodowithaminute · 05/11/2019 14:14

Decided to B2B today coffee, soup and toast (at 11am as was hungry!) chicken salad planned for tonight. Resisting the snacking urge-how’s everyone else doing?

BigChocFrenzy · 05/11/2019 15:23

Good luck, what

I had a lovely Rhine walk, but the sun has now gone and it's just starting to get dark already
I hate the months November - Feb

OP posts:
emcla · 05/11/2019 16:33

Doing well. Just had a chicken wrap with salad for lunch. Need to top up the water intake

Arifa97 · 05/11/2019 17:16

Today was such a fail, lost all motivation today and just could not be bothered. Came home starving with a headache, opened the fridge and smashed my face in a massive wedge of honeydew melon. Then I was about to eat a handful of peanuts straight from the bag but didn’t as sanity kicked in; instead I weighed a portion before eating. Dinner was fish pie and steamed broccoli - so full!
Just totalled up on MFP ate around 1200 and now I’m hibernating in bed!

aberjenagain · 05/11/2019 17:54

Fd done here on 600. Saved it all for tea, by which point I was ravenous, but chicken and leek pie has sorted that out Smile

Whattodowithaminute · 05/11/2019 17:59

arifa sounds like you’ve had a hard day but still probably come in well under TDEE I would think? So not a total fail at all-and you demonstrated constraint too which you might not have done before 5:2?

Sounds like a good day for you emcla

BCF it’s been glorious here today too but I find the evenings drawing in hard to tolerate-kids running around the house and screaming at each other.

Well kitchen closed here on about 850 had a chocolate rice cake for dessert which tipped me over. I’m not sure I’ll b2b again-I find my Monday Thursday routine much easier to manage.

Waterandlemonjuice · 05/11/2019 18:42

Hello everyone, I’ve closed the kitchen on around 800 cals

Brunch was2 rashers of bacon and a fried egg, reckon 400 cals

Supper was a salad of spinach, watercress, beetroot with smoked trout mixed with horseradish, creme fraiche and lemon, reckon 300 odd cals

Also had an apple and a small piece of cheese so I might be just over but not by much.

Waterandlemonjuice · 05/11/2019 18:42

Fairly pleased with no sugar or carbs too

BigChocFrenzy · 05/11/2019 18:53

Well done, aber, what, water

and well done on a low carb FD, water
For those sensitive to sugar / carbs, that helps a lot on FDs and some NFDs

Sounds like you are doing well, emcla
Not long to go now

Arifa You did well to weigh the peanuts, head off a binge and manage a sub-TDEE NFD with healthy food

To help avoid headaches next FD:

  • Keep drinking water throughout the day - fizzy junk, incl diet fizz, doesn't work as well.
    Sparkling water is good, if unflavoured.

  • Glug a level teasp Marmite (it's only 10 cals) from the jar

  • this replenishes salt & minerals that can be low when your body is still adapting to fasting
OP posts:
OohMrDarcy · 05/11/2019 19:05

Evening all,

Kitchen closed on 522 tonight, happy with that. Have also been on a bit of a post renovation blitz so the house is feeling more back to normal and I can walk in my bedroom again Grin

emcla · 05/11/2019 19:18

Had a small quiche with lots of leaves grated carrot toms onion and pepper on the side. Then I had 2 apples and a banana. 🙄

Bigchoc. I also don’t like these months. I find every year winter gets a bit harder .

aberjenagain · 05/11/2019 20:08

On computer so can reply properly for once!

Welcome (back)! This is such a fab, supportive thread, and posting here definitely helps keep me accoutnable to myself and less likely to fall back into bad habits.

Wow Lania, 6 st off is incredible, you should be so proud!

bcf soft play is generally horrific, this one is an exception. The whole complex started life as a farm shop and has built up into a sort of local empire from there. There is another soft play closer to me but it is grim Envy

BigChocFrenzy · 05/11/2019 20:44

Well done, MrD, emcla

emcla During these short days, I make the effort to get up early, to finish errands & chores so I can make the most of the day
Then I make sure I cycle and walk outside, along the Rhine so plenty of green
The light, exercise and green help my mood, or it would be much worse

MrD After the kitchen & bathroom renovation and now your blitz, you must feel a sense of acomplishment now that the house is as you want it.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 05/11/2019 20:45

aber A farm shop sounds an excellent basis for a soft play with great food.
When's your next FD ?

OP posts:
Arifa97 · 05/11/2019 20:51

Thanks bcf for the advice but I can't stand marmite - I'm in the "hate it" club unfortunately Grin. I think I might add a little bit of pink Himalayan salt to my water instead to balance my electrolytes on FD.

water well done on your 0 carb fast day!
emcla, what and ohmrdarcy well done on your FDS!

emcla · 05/11/2019 21:36

That’s a good plan bigchoc. I try to walk every lunchtime for an hour to get the daylight and some greenery. I also like to complete chores early on weekends to free up the rest of the day. Also on weekends I try to walk by the sea but it’s a good hours drive away. We usually go early walk then have lunch and then walk some more and drive home and have a light tea. Got to keep the spirits up.

SydneyCarton · 05/11/2019 21:42

First NFD where I have properly tracked calories on MFP. One snack (a fruit sherbet sweet!) but apart from that I kept to three meals and had treat foods as part of a meal. On the plus side my portions are generally okay and I’ve never had trouble eating veg and salad but the calorie bombs are definitely wine and crisps Blush.

My TDEE is 1607, MFP gives me 1640 based on my target weight at 0.5 lb a week and I came in bang on that. I wouldn’t say I’m still hungry but I’m definitely conscious of having eaten less than I normally would on an NFD, no wine, no biscuits, no crisps.

BigChocFrenzy · 06/11/2019 08:00

Arifa Be careful about the total daily amount if you choose salty water - there was a thread from a low carber who'd made herself ill with too much.

A tbsp of unsweetened soy sauce or miso soup is an alternative if you don't like Marmite
I regard Marmite as medicine and just glug it down quickly when I think I need it
More usually, I have a cup of beef Bovril (also only 10 cals) which is a good soup substitute on FDs

Those are good habits to survive the short day, emcla
I've been up since 5:15 and cycled to a work meeting, then shopping (I retire next year, so I'm pt & wfh)

  • oddly I don't mind cycling in the early morning dark when it's not raining; it's when it's dark before 5 pm that it seems all wrong Hmm

Pump class this evening, so I'll have a Rhine walk shortly

That's a good go at a 1st NFD without snacking, Sydney
It takes about a month for this new habit to become your normal

  • just remember not to allow snacks on nights out, social events etc, or the habit won't break

mfp is good for calculating calories in, but not advised in this WOE as a target, because it is geared up for standard daily diets
(The mfp target for weight loss looks odd anyway, if it is slightly above TDEE - it should be less)

For a rough NFD target, I recommend Mosely's calculator, which is pretty reliable:**
Calc TDEE

If you are a regular exerciser, then Mosely recommends using one activity level lower than you think
(because most people & gadgets significantly OVER-estimate exercise calories)

OP posts:
aberjenagain · 06/11/2019 09:15

Next fd is today bcf Smile Finding b2bs much more manageable than I’d expected and they fit well with my weekly routine

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 06/11/2019 09:25

morning everyone, yesterday was a bit if a difficult day, we had a big event that I had to present at, so up to event was fine, just had latte on way to office, then subway salad and yogurt.... but event was catered buffet, just shite like spring rolls, sandwiches, cakes and cookies and generally 'brown' food. I had a couple of bits and 2 glasses of wine and thought I'll eat when got home but obviously the trains were chaos as usually, so it took me nearly 2 hours and chucked off 2 cancelled trains and I got home at nearly 9pm, so just had a chicken salad and some crisps. No idea of the calories, but forgetting about it now.

Oh filly it sounds like you've had an awful time, hope things start to improve for you Flowers but as mrd says, you are now aware of your behaviour when things like this happen, so hopefully, you can get on top of them Smile

well done to all the fasters yesterday....

enjoy your rhine walk and pump class Bcf

nfd today and next fd planned for friday - good luck weds fasters

Waterandlemonjuice · 06/11/2019 11:17

Filly, sorry you’re having a hard time. Well done for recognising the emotional triggers to eating, me too. 💐

I’ve just read most of the thread and you’re all doing so well, it’s great to read.

Day 3 of BSD and AF for me and I’m feeling good and motivated.

Just had an apple and cheese for breakfast (supper was at 6pm last night so that’s 15 hours without eating, 9 of them asleep) and not sure what else to eat today but maybe halloumi salad