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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 87: It's my body and I can if I want to

981 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 14/09/2019 17:38

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon in August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850-1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
aberjenagain · 01/11/2019 17:52

Thanks mrd, and well done on the fd. I’m a shorty (5’ 3”), so still overweight - once I hit 10 st I’ll sneak inside normal bmi range Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 01/11/2019 20:50

Congratulations on your SV, aber
That's steady progress and it mounts up over the weeks
Look how far you've come

Have an early night after your flu job and take it easy tomorrow - I always take an easy couple of days after mine

Well done on your FD, MrD

I hope you are feeling better, what

OP posts:
OohMrDarcy · 02/11/2019 07:26

Morning all,

Weighed in today and most of the weight gained has gone again. Am now 14st 0.6lb so only 1lb up from before the break. Debating a mini this weekend to help get it gone but it will go next FD either way, will see how I feel I think.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/11/2019 09:45

That's good news, MrD

re adding a miniFD: consider whether you would still feel able to do your 2 FDs next week.
If you would, then WE fasting speeds things up; if not, better to stick to what is sustainable.

OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 02/11/2019 12:30

So...... I'm sneaking back onto the thread after a funny few months where I have not been in a great place and have been super stressed and unhappy at work. Anyway, three very stressful job interviews later I finally have a new job so i now have the headspace to get back into fasting.

I work in academia and have a three month notice to work which i was hoping my professor (who is one of the key reasons I'm leaving!) would let me negotiate a shorter notice (he does this frequently when it suits him!) But it seems like he's digging his heels in, so the next 3 months will be extremely busy and hard work, but the fact that I know I'm leaving will get me through it.

I have been trying to do the odd fd here and there but it's been difficult. So monday is my fresh start 🙂 I hope I'll have the time to post more as that helps me, will go back and read the thread in a bit but just wanted to post and say hello, I'm back 😁 happy Saturday everyone

BigChocFrenzy · 02/11/2019 15:50

Congratulations on the new job, 43 💐
A fresh start and hopefully a happy work environment can make such a difference to your quality of life

but what a mean sod your old boss is, not letting you leave earlier as he let the others
Never mind, now you have an end date to seeing Old Misery Guts and a start date for work without him

OP posts:
OohMrDarcy · 02/11/2019 22:05

Hey 43

Glad to hear you've taken steps to get away from a job that was making you unhappy, countdown is on to the new one! I'll be fasting Tuesday if you are up for joining me once again

Bigchoc - you were right (of course) weirdly as soon as I started to think about my food for a mini I almost panicked and wanted EVERYTHING. So, decided to stick to my usual and just be sensible !

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 02/11/2019 23:23

Thanks both, I think I'm going for monday and fri next week, I've got to give a massive presentation on tues which I dont want to do (but boss is insisting)

I've only glanced over this last page.... well done on your svs mrd and aber

EssentialHummus · 03/11/2019 07:03

Sounds positive 43, the end is in sight.

FD here, anyone else?

Pineappleunder · 03/11/2019 09:37

Hi all.
Checking back in with the thread. I've been going almost 2 weeks (I know that's nothing compared to most of you) also 2 weeks booze free- whoop!
BUT I'm just starting to lose my motivation and waver a bit. I'm still doing all the right things, bit no weight loss in the second week (possibly hormones.)
This is quite a usual time for me to start to struggle as it starts to become more of a WOE than a phase. I find my little sabotage voice sitting on my shoulder saying "one snack won't hurt" but then one becomes two and the old habits come back.
I struggle to keep on track much more on NFD because of this "just one more" voice.

Anyway. If any of you inspirational ladies fancy giving me a pep talk/ a bit of motivation it would be very much appreciated this week!

BigChocFrenzy · 03/11/2019 10:31

Good luck on your FD, Hummus
I'll have a mini FD today

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 03/11/2019 10:33

Stay focused, Pineapple You can do this

Weight loss and better health come from a longterm WOE during which you form new habits.
Permanent ones.
A "phase" or a short term "diet" means you join the 99% for whom "diets don't work"
......because

If you slip back into your old WOL, then you slip back to your old weight & waist

The most useful tip on this WOE is
^No snacking / grazing EVER
Eat meals, nothing between
Not on WEs, not on holidays - or the habit returns full on

A new habit takes at least a month to become permanent and can take longer if it is breaking an old habit.
One important tip with this is that if you slip up, don't give up, just get right back on the wagon asap.
^
Alcohol: the rules are never on FDs
^because it interferes with the fasting process and removes many benefits.

However, on NFDs you can drink^ within NHS limits.
If you have a problem with alcohol, then of course you may prefer to go dry,
or you may want an initial boost from a dry month

Noone loses every week and some folk lose in fits & starts, rather than linearly.

However, if you are not losing after 3 weeks, then you may be eating back the FD deficit on NFDs.
This can especially happen if you are giving up alcohol, when you have become dependant on it.
So you may need to mfp for a couple of weeks, as a reality check / training wheels.

Try to keep 5:2 healthy habits on NFDs, even at weekends:

  • NHS alcohol limits - daily & weekly
  • NEVER snack / graze between meals,
  • have sensible amount of treats and only as part of a meal, , not on their own
  • lots of water & veg
  • cut down on fizzy drinks, even diet ones (sparkling UNflavoured water is fine)
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 03/11/2019 10:38

Why we shouldn't snack

Mosely and most other fasting experts recommend no snacking between meals

Snacks were popularised by BIg Food around 1980, to increase profits.
They also increased waistlines.

Even "healthy" snacks - like fruit or dipping veg - keep insulin raised and hence reduce the time in which your body can burn fat.
And the most common / tempting snacks are not even healthy

Also, human studies show that most people consume more calories in a 24-hour period if they snack,
because the reduction in meal size (if any) is usually less than the calories contained in all the snacks.

You can lose despite snacking, but it will be slower than without.
So, have any treats - lattes, alcohol, crisps, biscuits, even fruit - as part of a meal.

Broad definition of a snack is that it is less than 3-4 hrs away from a meal.

Snacks are ok for those who need to gain weight, e.g. underweight DC - but this applies to only a few in the West

Snacking has caused a fundamental change for most of the population, compared to many millennia of evolution

  • almost no traditional eating culture includes snacking.

Each 24 hour day with snacks is now insulin-dominant (graph 2) instead of fasting-dominant (graph 1), see graphs from Dr Jason Fung:

5:2 Thread number 87: It's my body and I can if I want to
5:2 Thread number 87: It's my body and I can if I want to
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 03/11/2019 10:42

If you get desperate to munch between meals, then have cut raw veg ready in the fridge:
carrot / celery / cucumber etc
These are so low cal that they won't affect insulin levels significantly

but NO dip, oil or sauce etc, because that then becomes a snack, which will affect you

OP posts:
Pineappleunder · 03/11/2019 12:24

Thanks BCF- just what I needed.
I've just resisted the urge by making a poster for my fridge. Hope you like it.
I am feeling a bit better and more motivated for now. Yummy tomato and egg sarnie for lunch. Chicken curry later with lots of veg and then a FD tomorrow.
No booze is just for a month (for now) to give me a kick start to the weight loss- I'm definitely one for snacking after a glass or 2 of wine! It's feeling great though so I think I'll carry it in. It's good for the bank balance too. Only thing is I'm convinced people think I'm pregnant when they combine me saying no to wine and the decent sized belly I have Grin

5:2 Thread number 87: It's my body and I can if I want to
EssentialHummus · 03/11/2019 12:30

That poster is amazing Grin.

Fwiw pineapple the two things that work for me are 1. Routine (so the same FDs each week, often the same FD food) and 2. Not having crap in the house - if it’s in the house I can’t resist really, but if it’s not then past 5pm I’m home with the toddler and I can’t go to the shops.

ListeningQuietly · 03/11/2019 12:57

Another tip that helps is to
brush your teeth after each meal
as everything tastes foul for half an hour after a mouthful of minty toothpaste Smile

aberjenagain · 03/11/2019 16:02

pineapple that poster is awesome Grin

In a similar vein, I have a post-it on my computer monitor at work, that says:
No snacking
You can have it tomorrow
Will it bring you joy?

The last one just makes me stop and think about whether I really want to eat whatever it is and will enjoy it, or if I’m just eating because it’s there.

aberjenagain · 03/11/2019 16:07

43 Congrats on the new job and the escape route from a toxic work situation. Maybe you need a very prominent desk calendar to help you count down the days Wink

Hope your fd has gone well hummus

Well done on the loss mrd

Pineappleunder · 03/11/2019 16:50

Thanks for the poster compliments and for the tips.
@Aberjen I like 'will it bring you joy?' I'll borrow that one. A bit like Mari kondo for eating.

BigChocFrenzy · 03/11/2019 18:13

Fantastic poster, pineapple ! 😂 Star
and really clever post-its, aber

Listening's tip on brushing your teeth after meals is useful
I'd add brush your teeth whenever you feel tempted to snack, or to eat out of boredom / habit

OP posts:
EssentialHummus · 03/11/2019 18:16

FD done with one big meal at lunchtime (I’m off to see a film later so no temptation to snack at home - hopefully). Spent the morning gardening and the afternoon wandering around the shops with DD. Hoping for a b2b tomorrow.

BigChocFrenzy · 03/11/2019 19:45

Well done on your FD, Hummus
I recommend taking a bottle of water with you to the film, so you don't start buying there and get side-tracked
Also clean teeth well before leaving

OP posts:
ListeningQuietly · 03/11/2019 20:09

Oooh, have pooh crumbs been covered recently .....
especially in the run up to the festive season

Imagine the scene
At work a platter of food / cake / biccies is offered
everybody dives in
when did they last wash their hands
what have they touched since then
^do you really want to eat that food*
or
is it better to wait till your next planned meal Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 03/11/2019 21:34

Yep, listening
It's coming up to that long season of office offerings:

"Communal food has poo crumbs & snot smears !" 💩

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