5:2 Thread number 87: It's my body and I can if I want to

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon in August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850-1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Thanks for checking in on me @bigchocfrenzy.
First FD went really well! I was fully expecting to need to go over but all went well. I had porridge for lunch- weird choice for a FD but all I had in, then for dinner loads of veg.
My struggles before gave been more on the NFD- not over indulging. Today, I think, went well. Went shopping for tons of healthy foods with a meal plan.
I didn't manage to exercise as I ended up waiting ages to pick up a friend from hospital. But these things happen.
Leek and mushroom pie for tea with kale and new pots. Usually when I make this it would be with chicken and bacon too so I like to think I did well cutting down on meat and replacing with veg.

Second fast day tomorrow which I hope will be fine.

Watching GBBO which is making me hungry but I love it!

Well done on a very good 1st FD, arifa

Well done too, hummus
and on your "boxing" day - I find FD makes time so I can get down to that sort of chore

Listening OMAD is fine on FDs, since that is at most 500-800 cals in the single meal
However, NFDs including sub-TDEE ones are different:

For you & MrListening:
I recommend moving to 2 meals per NFD, with the larger one being lunch
Research & human studies shows that OMAD / large late suppers tend to worsen high BP and increase the risk of CVD, strokes etc.
The recommendations are to finish eating by latest 8 pm, especially with any existing risks of the above ailments.

If you find FDs tough, I recommend you try the 3 x miniFD system,
i.e. 800-1000 cals on e.g. Mon+Wed+Fri

Welcome back, thickofit and good luck

You've had a tough time, so even though weaning, I recommend you start with 2 x 1000 cal FDs,
then go down gradually to 700 cals

800-1000 cals gives 3 small meals, which Mosely says (for BSD) is more suitable for those with blood sugar problems
Remember to plan your FDs around protein & veg and avoid having just fruit on its own as a meal

Also, glug a level teasp Marmite mid-morning and midafternoon, to help avoid headaches again

Well done on your 1st FD, pineapple
and on staying moderate on the NFD

For future meals: people often find that protein helps keep them full and that too large a % of starchy carbs can spark cravings,
So although more veg is alsways good, I'd have cut down on the pastry and / or potato and - if included - any creamy / oily sauce or gravy, rather than the meat
However, if your system worked for you, that's fine

What can help keep NFDs under control, is to keep 5:2 healthy habits on NFDs, even at weekends, to form new longterm habits:

• NHS alcohol limits - daily & weekly
• NEVER snack / graze between meals,
• have sensible amount of treats and only as part of a meal, , not on their own
• lots of water & veg
• cut down on fizzy drinks, even diet ones (sparkling UNflavoured water is fine)

Bigchoc
Interestingly DH is now on blood pressure pills one of the reasons we started 5:2 all those years ago and the latest research says to take the pill at night rather than in the morning
and yes, we always tend to eat early more German than French style
and have LOTS of veg and little salt in our meals
and are both getting better at freezing the 2nd helping for another day rather than eating it.

5:2 really is a total lifestyle change that lasts for years and years

Delighted to hear that your teeth are on BigChoc! Your lunch sounds delicious - if my basic German is right then that sounds like an onion flan featuring in these?

Well done Whattodo and well reclaimed! and well done Pineapple and Arifa too - now your first FD is out of the way it does get easier (slowly....) Half term can be so difficult when you’re stuck at home - I’m almost glad I had to go to work today, although a lousy commute in both directions outweighed any escaping-the-dcs benefits

Hummus, clearing boxes with a toddler in tow is definitely a rainy day achievement - the weather was horrific today!! You honestly didn’t miss anything!

Well done on another great FD MrD: I’m nearly as excited as you for tomorrow’s weigh in

Listening, it sounds as though you’ve got a good maintenance rhythm going. I think if I can do something similar, along with regular exercise and, critically, no snacking, that would be sustainable for the long term once I hit goal.

Welcome (back) inthethickofit! Gosh you’ve had a tough time - it’s hardly surprising that your food intake hasn’t been a top priority for you over the past 6 months. And your poor little dc - hopefully things will start to get better soon...and it’s shocking how one night they suddenly shoot up and look down on you from above and aren’t little babies any more

Bit of a late check out from day 2. Fell off the wagon slightly, by way of half a mini mince pie, but considering I bought Jaffa cakes, mini mince pies and a couple of packs of Hobnobs for a long team meeting I’ll take nibbling at half of one and then quietly binning it, and ignoring everything else, as a bit of a personal achievement. Tuna salad thing for lunch again and soup for dinner, along with a box class tonight - I don’t think I’ll be back at 9.10 tomorrow but will be reasonably happy if I’m sticking at 9.11 for a bit. I’m nearly 5’7” so I know the last few pounds could be quite slow.

Good luck to all the Friday fasters

Morning all

Scales this morning have me at... * drumroll *

13st 13.6lb
Which is exactly a pound down from last week, taking total lost to 3st 12.8lb AND crucially broke into the 13 stone market 🎉

One happy and motivated darcy here ready for our little break and determined to not gain too much whilst we are gone!

Woohoo mrd, well done! Well done filly!

Amazing MrD!! Woop woop!! Have a lovely break

Smashing it MrD!

Thanks @BigChocFrenzy, last time I managed ok with 500 cal fasts. However I think you are right in that I need to start gentle so that I can stick to it.

Can I have a 1 can of full fat coke once a day on NFD? I will try to cut down and miss some days completely but to get me through the exhaustion I think i need it.

I'm due on my cycle and so feeling extra lethargic and I always get a fibro flare leading up to it.

Awesome mrd, hurrah!!!

Whoop whoop MrD great achievement well done you!!

Congratulations, MrD and welcome to the 13 stone somethings
On your way to 60lb loss

Don't worry if you regain a couple of lb during your break - just relax:
you know that an FD and a couple of dumps will zap that and you'll be back here in the 13 stone somethings again.

Well done on FD2, filly;
you stopped halfway through a mince pie, which shows good discipline

Do what is sustainble for you, inthethick
If that means a coke of any kind on some NFDs, that's ok, because noone here has 100% healthy habits

Thanks all, feeling the love

Whattodo - if the full fat coke works for you then stick with it for now.

Filly - I really wouldn't worry about half of a mini mince pie - thats not going to be even a mouthful is it? I'd say it shows good strength of character personally

And it was half a mini one, BigChoc, not even full size Looking forward to my first full size mince pie of the year, with a cup of tea, later this afternoon!

Still 9.11 today. A tiny bit disappointed it wasn’t lower after a b2b but trying to remember a) this isn’t a race and b) I tend to regain quick loss anyway so better to go slow and steady.

filly I'm just surprised there are mince pies in October ....
We don't get them here - we have cinammon / iced biscuits, rather like gingerbread, called "Lebkuchen",
but I haven't seen them yet

There is an entire aisle of the stuff in my local Sainsbury's already bigchoc - alongside the Halloween treats. I'm studiously avoiding it lest a Yule Log falls in my trolley .

BCF, I bought 2 bags of Leibkuchen (the white pfeffernusse variety) in Waitrose 2 weeks ago!! Right now I’m working from the kitchen at home, ignoring their siren call, and that of the stollen...

Have to report that my “mindful” mince pie (posh variety) with cup of tea was an absolute joy, and worth waiting for. Also working on ignoring the remaining 5 in the box....

hummus beware of falling logs !
imo, at least Halloween should be well over before I even look at buying Christmas cards etc in mid-Nov

Failed massively today. Had one can of Coke. But then snacked on grapes. Then a banana. Then ate two chicken and potato kebabs. Then had far too much rice and curry. With lots of irn bru 😳😳😳

I'll get there. I will

Don't worry, thick better luck next time

My advice:
Plan your entire FD menu in advance the day before and stick to it, no ad hoc eating
Plan say 3 small meals to total 800-1000 cals
So on the FD you never have to think about what you are going to have

Try not to snack
but if you think you may get desperate to munch on something, then have chopped cucumber / celery / carrot ready in the frig - but NO dip or sauce, no oat / rice cake etc
Calories for raw veg on its own can be ignored atm

Fruit on its own will spike your insulin & hunger, so do not snack on fruit

• have it only as part of a meal and only 1 portion in total per FD

In your case, since you seem sensitive to this, avoid grapes & banana on FDs, as they are high sugar - have an apple or berries instead
Also avoid dried fruit or fruit juice, because of the concentrated sugar

Avoid flavoured fizz on FDs, because even the diet kind can spike insulin
Sparkling UNflavoured water is fine with ice & a slice

On NFDs, keep to the 5:2 healthy habits, because that makes it easier on FDs

@inthethickofit19
Things didn't go to plan but you didn't fail.
You didn't say screw it and give up. You came back to this thread and you've still got a positive mindset.
It may not have been the best day for weightloss, but you're still moving in the right direction

Thank you both!

I'm going to fast on Monday. Healthy NFD today and tomorrow

Good luck, thick