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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 87: It's my body and I can if I want to

981 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 14/09/2019 17:38

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon in August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850-1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
EssentialHummus · 08/10/2019 20:45

Well done mrd! How's the loo situation?

OohMrDarcy · 08/10/2019 21:13

I have a working bathroom 🎉 electrician came today to do the light fittings etc!

Thursday the tiler is back doing the kitchen floor so will be another nightmare day, but for now I'm happy and relaxed!

BigChocFrenzy · 08/10/2019 22:19

Well done on your FD, mrd
and it sounds like your renovations should be complete EOW, barring maybe some painting ?

OP posts:
OohMrDarcy · 09/10/2019 09:29

Exactly that bigchoc - thank goodness!

Slept awkwardly last night and one side of my back is all seized up today which is pretty annoying! Will keep pottering and hope it starts to loosen up soon.

NFD here today and about to put miince for cottage pie in the slow cooker for dinner. What is everyone else doing?

Gone a bit quiet here all of a sudden, hope everyone is well!

EssentialHummus · 09/10/2019 10:09

It is very quiet here at the mo, you're right mrd. Sounds like great progress with your renovations, well done.

FD for religious reasons here, and the lack of coffee is hitting me hard. DD is with the nanny and I am trying to work but it's slow going! Filly how are you getting on?

OohMrDarcy · 09/10/2019 11:43

ooh good luck having a caffeine free day hummus! Are you allowed decaf or any hot drinks or is it water only?

EssentialHummus · 09/10/2019 11:47

Not even water mrd - it's a total fast. And actually if you are more observant than me you're supposed not to use electricity, browse the web, work... it's broadly fine, but I'll appreciate my coffee tomorrow morning!

BigChocFrenzy · 09/10/2019 12:29

Oh poor you, MrD
I hope your back loosens up as the day progresses
A gentle 20 minute walk might help

hummus I wondered whether you & filly would be able to MN !

I gather the Yom Kippur fast ends at sundown today, which is about 6pm in the UK ?

The recommendation I've read when breaking total fasts is to start with a glass of water and say 5-6 dates, then wait 20-30 minutes before a light meal with more water,
to go easy on your tum.
Or do you have another system ?

I presume you'll have your coffee with the meal, since you'll probably be up late anyway, so ... not long to go until caffeine bliss Smile

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 09/10/2019 12:30

Oh, I've just spotted coffee tomorrow

OP posts:
EssentialHummus · 09/10/2019 12:33

Yes it’s very similar bigchoc - something light like water and a simple cake, or soup, then a proper meal a bit later. It’s not very long really - it always makes me admire Muslims who do Ramadan, esp in the warmer weather.

aberjenagain · 09/10/2019 12:42

Checking in Smile Completed fd yesterday on 510. No b2b this week as off out for dinner with friends tonight, so next fd on Friday.

Hurrah for a functioning bathroom mrd!

Good luck with your fasting today filly and hummus

aberjenagain · 09/10/2019 12:43

Ps hummus mixed reviews on the spiced pineapple and banana cake. Some at work loved it, I was more ‘meh’. Harissa-flavoured icing is definitely an acquired taste!

OohMrDarcy · 09/10/2019 12:47

Wowsa - don't mean to be flippant hummus but not even water makes me glad I'm not religious! I couldn't cut it with that kind of thing.

I've done the school run this morning bigchoc which is about 12 min walk each way and will be doing it again this afternoon. Currently feeling a bit better after popping ALL THE DRUGS (ibuprofen / paracetamol / codeine ) ... no idea which one helped, but I can move a bit better for now at least!

Well done on yesterdays FD aber - enjoy your meal out tonight. Not sure about the sound of the spiced pineapple and banana cake ... suspect not my cup of tea!

BigChocFrenzy · 09/10/2019 17:01

Well done on your FD yesterday, aber

Your Yom Kippur fast must be nearly over, Hummus, filly
I hope all has gone well and you are feeling OK

  • It must be extra tough if you have to feed & wrangle any kids with that kind of fast

Maybe it was the walk which helped, MrD but keep up the drugs Grin

OP posts:
OohMrDarcy · 09/10/2019 17:08

Definitely the drugs, wore off by the time I was back from pickup. Have taken more now!

Filly and Hummis, hoping it's nearly eating and drinking time for you!

OohMrDarcy · 10/10/2019 09:25

Morning all

Back easing up slightly - taken more drugs and managed the school run better this morning... hopefully will be back to normal by the weekend.

NFD here and we are down for a pasta dinner, however the kitchen floor is being tiled - so goodness knows if I'll even be able to walk in there to make dinner... I suspect it may be a winging it kind of day Hmm

Filly and Hummus - hoping your evening meal was enjoyable. Are you finished with your religious festival now or does it continue?

How is everyone else doing at the mo? Not seen 43 in a little while?

Blossom, how is your injury?

BigChocFrenzy · 10/10/2019 15:06

That's good news, MrD

When you are fully recovered, why not try a weekly flexibility / back / pilates class or video ?

I do this and it keeps my back in good nick,

OP posts:
EssentialHummus · 10/10/2019 15:23

Gah mrd, I hope it continues to improve.

I had an enormous cuppa this morning and am back to myself Smile. No more major festivities until December when we have a holiday that obliges us to snaffle lots of fried doughnuts! I'll be getting my b2b in early that week Grin.

NFD here, and it's "use up contents of freezer" time in this house, so we're eating all sorts of odds and ends. I've made a risotto-like thing for dinner.

Hope others are doing well.

OohMrDarcy · 10/10/2019 15:46

Glad to hear you are back to yourself today hummus! I'm loving the sound of your December holiday Grin

Tiling 80% done in kitchen.... and we can't walk on it tonight Hmm He will be back for more mayhem tomorrow... yay. On the good side, appliances should be going back in tomorrow afternoon at least so I will be able to start getting back to normal.... final bits on Monday I think?! (wonder how many times I've said things will get back to normal in the last few weeks!)

BigChoc - you are right of course, I should be doing some back work regularly. Will have a think about what could work for me.

BigChocFrenzy · 10/10/2019 17:50

Sounds like the fast went v well, hummus
December will be fun for you - every faith should have a donut festival ! Grin

Cross fingers MrD that all will be finished by EOB Monday,
so on your Tuesday FD you can revel in your lovely kitchen

OP posts:
emcla · 10/10/2019 18:10

Hi all. I’m back. I’m feeling miserable as I’ve had great success with5 2 before. A month or two of 5 2 and I’m back to my happy weight at just under 9 stone. However it’s not happening as easily now. I’m 45. And very fed up. I’ve a family wedding coming up mid nov and would love to fit into my smart clothes as I don’t want to buy new ones. Is it doable. I’ve about half a stone to lose. I recognize some people on here from before. Big choc you were so helpful before. All advice greatly appreciated.

BigChocFrenzy · 10/10/2019 19:04

Welcome back, emcla

So, 7 lb in 5 weeks
That's feasible, but if you are already within healthy BMI and finding it slow going at 45,
I suggest being much stricter for those 5 weeks than in standard 5:2

Why 5:2 may no longer works as quickly for you as it used to:

  1. At 45, you are probably entering peri-menopause.

If so, you will have reduced levels of the hormones estrogen & progesteron, tending to increase insulin levels and possibly cortisol too.
This would increase fat storage, especially around your midsection.

  1. You have stayed at a higher weight most of the time and just diet occasionally to correct it,
    so the total time at that higher weight has become sufficient to make it into a "set point" which your body tries to maintain.

  2. During your time off 5:2, your "normal eating" may have increased
    i.e. your NFDs naturally are higher cal and hence you are eating back the FD deficit

So, what worked before, may not work now

Hence, if the target date is really important, I recommend 5 weeks 5:2 Boot camp:

(You may find you don't need all 5 weeks)

  • Keep within TDEE on all NFDs - mfp until you are confident of this.
    Calculate TDEE with Mosely's TDEE Calc
    He says that exercisers should calculate with one activity level lower than they think

  • Cut out alcohol.
    Cut out fruit juice, dried fruit, sugary breakfast cereal.

  • Cut out all sugary (cake, biscuits, sweets)
    and junky carbs (pizza, crisps etc)

  • if you can't do this, have say 1 sensible portion on 2 NFDs weekly
  • Exercise 3-4 days per week. Boost HIIT, e.g. do Shred if necessary reducing any current medium intensity cardio exercise to make time Or add to existing exercise, e.g. sprint intervals at the start of a run or swim

If pushed for time, then the HIIT can be Mosely's HIIT Fat Blasts:
just 2-5 mins on 3-5 days per week, at home or in the park or gym, see 5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 OP

Research shows they** are surprisingly good at correcting some insulin metabolism issues which may be hindering weight loss

OP posts:
emcla · 10/10/2019 20:43

Thank you bigchoc. I don’t drink alcohol but will tighten up on nfd’s. Start tomorrow with a fd. Thank you for taking the time to reply. So informative. Will keep you posted.

blodynmawr · 10/10/2019 20:58

FD today at around 600 cals.
Did a similar FD Tuesday.
No headaches this week but I only get them occasionally and think they're more related to peri-m than WOE....
Hungry now so having an early night and looking forward to breakfast tomorrow Smile

mummTum · 10/10/2019 21:30

I’ve fallen off the wagon! I’ve been so stressed at work and only sleeping about 5 hours a night; got all too much today and I had a meltdown.... so many tears in front of all my colleagues...

So... I’m taking it easy. My meals have been healthy but I haven’t the energy to calorie count and spend the whole day hungry.

Thanks everyone for the tips and support, hope to be back next week but this week just a no go for me. Well done everyone who is doing well! Esp those who’ve done Yom Kippur !