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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 86: Weight loss doesn't begin in the kitchen or the gym; it starts in your head with a decision to go for it !

980 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 03/07/2019 14:48

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
OohMrDarcy · 12/07/2019 13:12

Keep going Bogie and drink plenty of water - anything else ' you can have it tomorrow!'

Bogiesaremyonlyfriend · 12/07/2019 15:17

Thanks mrd by tummy is rumbling!! Yeah I'm sure I've not had enough water today, had loads on my first fast day and i wasn't hungry! I'll have a big glass now

blodynmawr · 12/07/2019 19:42

Thanks for the new thread Smile
Haven't posted for a while but still fasting twice a week. Doing OMAD now on FDs. Also finding the weather helps when it is warm - mainly fancy green salads and tomatoes!
1lb off this week after a few weeks of plateau Smile
Well done everyone following this WOE.

MazDazzle · 13/07/2019 00:28

Well done Darcy! That is so inspirational. What a loss.

NFD for me today. It didn’t go according to plan. I made the kids pancakes this morning since we are on holiday. I didn’t plan on eating any as once I start, I can’t stop.

I had one pancake with a tiny drizzle of maple syrup, a dollop of yogurt and berries. Then I nibbled on another pancake on its own, then another, and another... until I’d eaten 6 pancakes! Blush

Was so busy the rest of the day and didn’t eat anything else. Tallied it in mfp and it’s still within TDEE. Hardly the healthiest NDF though.

Must try harder tomorrow!

OohMrDarcy · 13/07/2019 06:54

Morning all,

Enjoyed my curry last night and now back to normal. I'm going out today to a local music thing so am going to put a one person picnic together

BigChocFrenzy · 13/07/2019 08:15

I hope your FD went well, bogies

Enjoy your picnic and music, MrD
Sounds another lovely day for you

  • the new you has a lot of fun ! Grin

It's just one NFD, maz
and you are within TDEE, so no problem
I'm sure you'll remember the protein and veg next NFD - you are probably sick of pancakes now, anyway ! Grin

Well done on your SV, Blody
Many people prefer just the one meal on FDs
Salads are super-healthy; I love them especially with olive oil and grilled salmon fillet or prawns

If your loss has been generally slow and you are not already well within healthy BMI,
then I suggest you review your NFDs - you may be eating back the FD deficit
The 5:2 healthy habits can help you retrain your "normal" eating

OP posts:
Bogiesaremyonlyfriend · 13/07/2019 09:11

Yes it went ok thanks. Dh put a film on and had a bag of doritos but I resisted!! Scales say I've lost 4lbs now since starting as I didn't put back the 2 on from the last fast day!

Off camping for the weekend but packed lots of salads so hopefully I'll keep it off. Plus lots of walking. Been for an early morning bike ride, which was really hard after a fd with no breakfast!!

BigChocFrenzy · 13/07/2019 10:07

Congratulations on your SV, Bogies
A good start with your FDs and resisting importuning doritos !

OP posts:
Ginger1982 · 13/07/2019 15:43

Just found this thread. Started 5:2 last Monday, ate my 500 calories and then was planning to fast again on Thursday but I was in a situation where I couldn't. I'm a SAHM so most days are spent taking DS to various toddler classes/groups and if I'm out and about at lunchtime on FD I find it hard to stick to it, especially in places like softplay.

Hoping to start again next week though!

BigChocFrenzy · 13/07/2019 17:11

Welcome, ginger 🙂 and good luck

It's tough when you're out on an FD and surounded by food
Best tactic is to just have a cup of tea or coffee there, but have your meal(s) at hóme

OP posts:
EssentialHummus · 14/07/2019 13:54

Hi all, Sunday FD here - just me?

ginger I'm also at home with DD most days. I tend to stick to coffees as bigchoc says, then have a meal once she's down for a nap. Or if we eat together I'll just make sure I take something along to eat there that meets my needs, rather than be tempted by toasted sarnies etc there. It's also useful to remember that a lot of food in these places is not that tasty and quite pricey, so more reason to swerve.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/07/2019 15:19

Looks like you're the only Sunday faster, hummus Smile

What's your menu and how is the FD going ?

OP posts:
Fillybuster · 14/07/2019 16:38

Checking in late, but keeping you company Hummus Smile. Did a box fit class at lunchtime which helped with family-Sunday-lunch avoidance, and gave me a bit of a boost to carry me through the afternoon. Definitely need more water tho! Butternut squash and chickpea tagine for dinner tonight, I think. Scales stayed down at 10.0.8 for most of the week (yay) but crept up after yesterday’s bbq so hopefully this will help reset.

Welcome Ginger Grin. As everyone has said, the best way to deal with all those temptations is to stick to tea or coffee and make sure you’ve got a proper lunch in wait for when you get home, so you can look forward to it.

Hope everyone is having a good weekend?

BigChocFrenzy · 14/07/2019 18:20

Good luck, filly, hummus
Drink lots of water !

OP posts:
EssentialHummus · 14/07/2019 20:26

Hi filly, hope the rest of your FD was good!

Kitchen closed here. Not the greatest FD - toddler birthday party around lunchtime and circumstances meant that I couldn't really not eat, so I had a few picnicky bits, stayed away from the drinks and just made the best of it. Then a big green salad for dinner, and a biscuit. Three coffees during the day. No idea about calories, possibly slightly over.

I'm planning a B2B tomorrow (quite rare for me now as I'm edging towards maintenance) as this past week has been fairly stressful and disjointed with our windows being replaced, and I am feeling a bit heavy. Not just overeating (though there was some) but also my body getting sluggish as it can do when I'm stressed. Luckily they will be done soon and we can enjoy our lovely new windows!

Good luck any other Monday fasters.

LillyLeaf · 14/07/2019 20:36

Mind if I join? I've had a pretty crappy last 8 months with IVF, pregnancies and miscarriages and the weight has crept up, I feel big and flabby (I blame the hormones, but maybe all the comfort eating hasn't helped). I just want to get back to me. I haven't exercised at all this year. My diet is mostly healthy but my problem is sugar, I bloody love and crave it. So I thought I would give the 5.2 a go. I've done juice detox before and I didn't feel hungry so thinking the FD day could include a healthy juice? Anyone done this? Have you all had a steady weight loss?

EssentialHummus · 14/07/2019 20:44

Welcome lilly! It is up to you, but most juices are calorie bombs ime - they don’t fill you up but are pretty calorie-dense. Even if you have the fruit whole instead you’ll feel much fuller.

Weight loss is fairly steady for me. I plot it on a graph and it looks like a stock market crash Grin - lots of downward zigzags.

Fillybuster · 14/07/2019 23:13

Well done, Hummus - sounds like you made the best of a difficult day! I’m closing the kitchen under 500 but hard to be exact as I made an enormous vat of vegetable stew (2 teaspoons veg oil, lots of cumin, paprika, chilli, coriander etc, aubergine, onions, garlic, courgette, butter beans, tinned tomatoes) with the handful of bbq remains chopped in (precisely 2 sausages, 1 burger, 1 minute steak in total) which resulted in 10 large portions of stew. Dh and ds had theirs with couscous, and I had a tiny jacket potato and one teaspoon hummus with mine. So, it was loosely 1/5 tin butter beans, 1/5th sausage, 1/10th burger & 1/10th tiny steak, all originally cooked without oil, plus approx 90 Cals for the potato. Hard to calculate, but pretty sure that’s under 500!

Hummus, I may join you in a b2b tomorrow. Sadly not because I’m close to target but to try to get everything moving a bit faster. Feel like I’ve been stuck between 10-10.2 forever, so may try BCFs suggestion of 3:4 this week.

Welcome Lilly! Lots of great advice in BigChocs post at the top (or bottom) of this thread. I recommend following the links and getting an idea of what foods work well on FDs. On the whole, the recommendations are more on veg and protein, as fruit can be high sugar, but definitely go with the whole fruit and not a juice if you are going to have it. Great to know you’re comfortable with fasting though - it’s a good start! There’s some amazing and inspiring stories if you skim through this thread, but everyone loses weight at different speeds. Obviously how much you need to lose can make a difference, but so can how you eat on your non fast days. For example, I’ve had a whole batch of big social occasions, meals etc, so my weight loss is pretty small, but I’m grateful to have stemmed the constant slow increase and I know that it’s (slowly, slowly) moving in the right direction now. Good luck!

MazDazzle · 15/07/2019 00:09

Well done filly and Hummus, you really are hardcore nailing a FD on a Sunday!

Welcome lilly. It sounds like you’ve been through a rough time. I completely get the sugar craving. That is my downfall too!

Had a much better weekend NFD today! Still had some treats, but in moderation. Finally opened the malteasers, but with a meal and only had a handful then taped up the rest and put them back in the fridge - unheard of for me!

I’m pleased that my water intake is up and I’ve not had any alcohol this weekend.

Planning on fasting tomorrow. Will be checking in to see who else is on board for a Monday fast.

SoSydney · 15/07/2019 03:12

Hi all, Monday here
hope you survived the weekend...
We had Christmas in July here in Sydney, a french festival and dinner in an igloo with the girls, it was such a full on weekend, food wasn’t to bad (mainly bacon, chicken & snails) but the alcohol consumed was definitely not good
So much needed fast day today for me

onko · 15/07/2019 06:59

Morning all. Really impressed at the weekend fasting.
So my 5:2 starts today; I am feeling positive but slightly trepidatious. As a kick-start I have done 11 days of sub800 followed by 3 days of under TDEE whilst on holiday which I am way more proud of than the 11 days.

500 feels much more difficult than 800; I am realistically only going to manage this if I do it at work and have a normal-ish meal with DH at home.

I’ve started using MFP which is going to be an essential tool as I have been such a picker on 800 days and logging my ‘pickings’ has been Shock (eg nearly 400kc on a skinny latte, 2 carrots, 1 apple, 2 large strawberries and half an oat cake with peanut butter). In fact I am Shock in general about the calories in fruit (95kc for a medium apple, 105kc for a medium banana). I had a belief dating back for about 30 years than all pieces of fruit were 40kc except bananas which were 60. I love my fruit so this is going to be a big re-training area for me (fruit only as part of a meal).

BigChocFrenzy · 15/07/2019 08:03

Well done, Hummus
Sounds a fair FD when you have to cope with a party
Good luck with your b2b - on maintenance, you could ease into a miniFD

A graph of weight loss on 5:2 is very typically a zig-zag curve, with the FDs & NFDs, but trending downwards over the weeks

Well done on a heathy FD, filly
and good luck on your b2b too

Your weight roadblock is obviously the NFDs, with so many social / business feasts,
but if you can't in rl cut those out for a couple of months, then turning the other NFDs into FDs looks the only way to get a weekly calorie deficit

Well done on your weekend, Maz and healthy NSVs there
especially no alcohol and only having some of the Maltesers

Welcome, lilly 🙂
I'm sorry you've had such a tough time 💐

Your weight gain will have been accelerated by sugar,
so I recommend you use 5:2 to break that addiction and move to a much more moderate intake of sugary treats

I also strongly recommend against fruit juice, especially on an FD, when you have a sugar problem

  • the concentrated sugar will make you feel very hungry, espeially on such limited calories. Also, that much sugar will raise insulin and reduce fat-burning

Instead, have one portion of low-sugar fruit, e.g. berries or an apple, but do not juice it

On NFDs, you can have 2 portions of fruit - Mosely recommends against more than this, as he says that too much fruit can indicate a problem with insulin metabolsm

On NFDs, try to cut down sugary treats like cake, biscuits etc to every other day
No junk on FD, of course

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 15/07/2019 08:21

Good luck on your FDs, sydney, onko

"Christmas in July", sydney 😂
Sounds great fun, but try to keep the 1-drink NFD limit as a longterm daily habit, to help weight management

onko if you think 500 calories v tough, you could ease in gradually with say 700 cals at first , be sensible on NFDs
and see how weight loss goes.

What is more important than an extra 200 calories is sticking to Mosely's recommendations, FDs and NFDs:

  • As posted above, limit fruit to 1 portion (80g or 1 apple / pear etc) on FDs, 2 portions on NFDs
    No juice on FDs
    Fruit contains many nutrients, but veg often has more and without the high sugar content

  • Have meals, NO snacking between, FDs & NFDs

Even "healthy" snacks keep insulin raised all day and hinder fat burning
So, you need to permanently break this habit

Keep low cal raw veg, e.g. carrots, celery, cucumber in the fridge in case you get desperate while new habits form
BUT no sauce, dip or spread with it, no fruit, oat cakes or crackers etc with it

  • Base FD meals on protein & veg, with optionally a small amount of starchy carbs or a little fruit Typical FD choices: salads, stirfries, stews packed with veg & lentils / beans
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 15/07/2019 08:24

Snacks are a useful strategy for those who need to gain weight, but not normally when trying to lose weight

OP posts:
Fillybuster · 15/07/2019 10:47

Thanks BCF Smile I’m super excited to report that I don’t have a single “big” social occasion in the diary this week. So 3:4 plus gym every day (I hope!) in a concerted effort to move the bastard misogynistic patriarchal pigscales to something starting with a 9....