5:2 Thread number 84: Exercise hack - Fartlek = interval training with non-regular intervals; Fartleg = lie sideways watching TV and gently raise a leg to break wind

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Mosely's TDEE Calc - Exercisers:Use 1 activity level below what you think
Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Congratulations on your SV, Hummus

Hummus, scruffy You would get slightly more weight loss if you can make lunch your main meal rather than dinner / supper.

That's because you would be better able to burn off lunch during the afternoon and also increase the effectiveness of the overnight fast

Research confirms this. Mosely says however - very sensibly - if you can't manage that, then do what fits in with your family life etc.

Welcome, Mystified 🙂
and well done on a good first FD

Welcome, Dripping 🙂

I hate to say it, but :

1. Loss with PCOS is always slower - but definitely doable

2. The key to weight loss with PCOS is usually cutting back carbs, especially sugary junk, to sensible levels.
   That's because PCOS comes with insulin resistance: an inability to handle carbs well

That doesn't have to mean daily low carb - although that would be the most effective method - but it does mean developing new habits and cutting right back

Answers to your questions:

Gadgets are not very reliable wrt calories burned, so don't eat back any activity calories they claim
Scales are reliable for weight, if used properly, not really anything else

Instead, use Mosely's TDEE Calc
He recommends that exercisers calculate with one activity level lower than they think
The most effective exercise to help your insulin metabolism on PCOS is HIIT
So, shorter bursts of intense intervals, rather than long sessions of steady state exercise

NFDs
aim to eat within TDEE.
Don't try to stay at 1500 - these are supposed to be "maintenance days"
try to keep 5:2 healthy habits, even at weekends:

• NHS alcohol limits,
• NEVER snack / graze between meals,
• have sensible amount of treats - say ONE sensible portion every other day - and only as part of a meal
• lots of water & veg
• cut down on flavoured fizzy drinks, even diet ones

FDs
there are no extra calories for exercise
Also, no alcohol, no sugary junk whatsoever

Ôh no, Blossom I hadn't realised you had to stay in hospital after the accident
Best wishes for the op 💐

That's brilliant progress on the sugar addiction, granny
If you aren't fasting atm, I recommend moving to 6:1 or even 5:2, to speed up the inches loss

Dripping The Exante meals or shakes should be ok on FDs, if you like them,
but do avoid any of their biscuits, puddings, chocolate etc on FDs - OK as an NFD treat

Welcome back, Hockney
Winter can be very depressing.
Fortunately we seem to have had a very short winter and the warmest February i can remember

I try to make sure I have a daily walk outside if it's not raining

• being outside really helps mood, especially if the sun peers out

I call those "serendipidous FDs", TiP !
Handy to take advantage of.

Your Head Office / Subway fasting system sounds very convenient, MrD
On FDs, you can have their salad with a double portion of protein and either the lightest dressing or none - I usually take a little plastic lemon with me < shameless >

Those early nights are good for you, 43
Especially on FDs
They are part of self-care

What is a sensible carb portion for those who need to be mindful of carbs ?

Keep to 1-2 portions of fruit on NFDs, no more (Mosely)
On FDs, you'd probably find it easier with 0-1 portions

Per NFD meal:
Maximum 80-100g cooked weight of potato / rice / pasta etc or 1 slice wholegrain or wholemeal bread / 2 slices rye bread
If you "double carb," then halve the portion of each, e.g. 40g + 50g

For porridge, 50g oats is the recommended portion on NFDs

What helps:
reduce some of the starchy carbs by having a portion of beans / peas / lentils, which research shows helps stabilise blood sugar for most folk.

AVOID:
Sugary breakfast cereals
Fruit juice
Dried fruit

BigChoc thank you for your welcome and all the information,will write it all down ,make a plan and start Monday. The information on carbs is particularly useful and sadly carbs were,are and always will be a struggle for me. I actually start to feel poorly and quite low every time I try to cut them out or right down. But I'm prepared to give the whole thing a good go, because what I was doing isn't working anymore.

Good luck @YourSarcasmIsDripping. I would just try and gradually reduce carbs rather than try to cut them out. My opinion is that carbs are good for us but the general amount of them that people eat is way too much.

In Italy they love their pasta, but a portion is about half the size of one here, served as a starter and then it's meat and veg or salad. Here we eat giant bowls of pasta with garlic bread and then a pudding!

One thing I find with 5:2 is that I can't manage much carb anymore. Tonight was pasta and meatballs for dinner (NFD) and I realised I actually didn't want any pasta so I sautéed some leeks and cooked some asparagus in with the pasta and had my meatballs in sauce with that. I still feel absolutely stuffed but not bloated like after a carbs meal.

Thanks bigchoc. I think I tended to go for evening FD meals because they felt like a treat at the end of the day and then I just got in the habit, but I might try a few more lunchtime main meals. After scruffy posted this morning I went digging for research and found an interesting article about meal timings which I thought I'd share:

"Our trial tested eTRF [early time-restricted feeding] in men with prediabetes — a population at great risk of developing diabetes — and indicates that eTRF is an efficacious strategy for treating both prediabetes and likely also prehypertension."

medium.com/lifeomic/late-dinners-make-you-sicker-a-case-for-breakfast-and-early-time-restricted-feeding-8e2e0955fa44

Don't worry, Dripping You're not the first here with PCOS or with a "carb addiction"
We can fix it 🙂

I'm not suggesting low carb, just moderate carbs
the portions I quoted upthread aren't low carb at all; they are the official carb portions for a normal diet.
earslaps is right:
most people can cope with starchy carbs; it's simply that their portions are way too high.

What may have been a problem is if you have been doing a low cal version of low carb e.g. on Exante, or even mfp

==> I recommend
plenty of protein and sensible amounts of fat, with moderate starchy carbs and masses of veg
Fish & eggs are especially good
Try to have beans / peas / lentils at least a few times per week
Enjoy olive oil, olives too, some unsalted nuts
Full fat natural Greek yoghurt with fruit, no added sugar

Some people experience what is called "Low carb flu" where they feel weak & headachey for 1-2 weeks, but it goes when they persist.
If you experience this even coming down to moderate levels, it still shouldn't last any longer

What helps:

• glug down a teasp of Marmite mid-morning and mid-afternoon (treat it like medicine, even if you don't like the taste)
  This replenishes salt & minerals which may be low as your body adjusts to lower carbs and / or fasting.

• Drink plenty of water - start each day with a glass and keep water with you

• Get plenty of sleep - plan so you can have early nights as much as poss the first 2 weeks

Hummus Research into longterm health factors indicates that
everybody should aim to have dinner no later than about 7:30 pm / aiming to finish at least 3 hours before bed:

Late meals / just before bed increase the risk of CVD, strokes, high BP

Don't worry about a late night milky drink - that's fine. The risk is when people consume 100s of calories late, whether in a meal or an after-dinner binge

Thanks for that info BCF. I'm guilty of later eating (not really late but sometimes 8pm or so) and on an 'early to bed night' this really doesn't leave long between dinner and bed. I'll have to think about that.

Successful FD, first proper one really since before holidays and I'm really pleased to be back on it. Main difference today is I've drank loads of water (oh and had a 1.5 hour afternoon 'nap' zzzzz!) so I need to make sure I keep the water flowing. Day 2 of B2B tomorrow. Well done everyone fasting today!

Some people experience what is called "Low carb flu" where they feel weak & headachey for 1-2 weeks, but it goes when they persist.

This is really good to know, I normally gave up since I was feeling so miserable.

the portions I quoted upthread aren't low carb at all; they are the official carb portions for a normal diet

They seem so low to me, which obviously means I've never had a normal diet at least when it comes to carbs. As a child I always had bread with a meal (couple of slices) and meals would be fairly carby too potatoes,rice,pasta and some meat.
I hate eating without bread even now it just feels...wrong.

A lot to think about really and consider. You make it sound like a science lesson but it really helps. I really appreciate all the info and support.

Are those carb numbers per meal or per day?

Dripping As posted, the amounts I quoted are per meal
So that is quite enough carbs in a day

If you are a man, increase those amounts by 20-30%

Don't worry if you can't manage this all at once
Step by step and do what you can, at your own pace

The first things to work on is to cut out snacking between meals
and to reduce sugary junk, if you eat a lot of cake, biscuits etc
At least make sure you only have them as your pud, after a meal.

Well done on your FD , scruffy

Dripping The numbers I gave are actual scale weights, not the number of grams of carbs you see in mfp

If you like to track macros in mfp, then work on getting total carb grams for the day below 200g
low carb would be 20-70g, so you can see it's not low carb

Thanks, it's a lot of info and keep re reading but it's either my short attention span or my brain blocking it out.

One more question (God I must be annoying) I have no breakfast , an exante yogurt for lunch (17g carbs) and dinner. Would that mean I'm allowed more carbs for dinner ,or just stick to the rules ,keep it simple and stop trying to hold on to carbs ?

Don't drink alcohol or do much sugary junk either , I do like honey though. Used to be my treat on a slice of toast.

I do have a daily diet red bull and drink diet coke though,other than that sparkling water(unflavoured).

Need to keep an eye on drinking during work hours though as I don't have many opportunities to pee and a bladder weaker than a 2 yo.

I'm already trying to meal plan and try to decide which days would be best for fasting.

Sorry crossposted

Dripping Ask as many questions as you want 🙂

I recommend you keep to the limits per meal that I suggested - they are limits, not targets
e.g. if you have fewer carbs at some meals, still keep to the limits for the remaining meals.

If you have too many carbs at once, this spikes insulin,
so you'll soon feel cravings again and want more carbs
That starts the spiral.

That's a really great advantage that you don't consume much sugary junk or alcohol.

Try to drink water, either still or fizzy - much better for your body than flavoured fizzy crap
As a first step, can you cut down to 1 diet drink per day ?

As I posted upthread, Mosely cited a lot of research to show that artifical sweeteners tend to increase obesity longterm.
They change the gut flora, so the body is more likely to store fat
Also, for many people, artificial sweeteners spike insulin just like sugar does, hence increasing hunger later and hindering fat-burning.

Checking in so that I keep myself on the wagon . Hello to those who have also joined recently, and to all you heroic FDers. Haven't properly caught up on all the individual news, though I did see the post about your accident Blossom and hope you are doing okay, and recovering. A horse broke my collarbone when I was a teenager, but it doesn't sound anywhere near as grave as your injuries.

I've been pretty good, but my weightloss has slowed down a bit. I know it's only my second week of this new WOE, and I no doubt lost more at first because of water. I have been weighing myself every day, even though I know that's not always the best idea - just that I find it helps to keep me on track. Also, if I haven't weighed for more than a few days I get the fear that weight will have jumped up and I'll feel daunted and then say f* it and eat. I gained a few 100g this morning, but I had a night out. I was pretty disciplined and restricted carbs, maintained portion control, etc, and had basically had a FD up to the evening in order to keep my overall count low. However I did have a couple of glasses of wine, so, I guess going up only a very small amount isn't too bad.

Did a FD today - hardboiled egg and tea for breakfast. Soft-boiled egg and green beans for lunch, and small steak and broad beans for dinner. Found it actually a bit easier when I had three meals instead of my usual two. MFP tells me this was just over 800 cals, but I don't feel hungry now as I usually do. So either my calculations/weighing of things was off, or I am getting used to this thing.

I'm still somehow sure that the scale will go up tomorrow morning. Sigh. I am feeling pretty good, but I feel a bit discouraged at times. Can I keep the weight off? Going to read through the posts I've missed properly now to encourage myself.

fiddle I know you know this but weight loss seems to be a non linear process, even if you are doing everything right. If day-to-day fluctuations derail you, can you put them away each week?

Second FD here, had two eggs for breakfast as I worked today and I can’t get through without some food. Nothing since and I feel fine, it’s 5pm here. I’ll probably have a small amount of brown rice, some beef casserole (mainly the vege) and broccoli for my remaining cals.

Checking in for a Thursday FD. Good luck to anyone else fasting today.

DH is working away and due back late so might need a small lunch and then planning a baked salmon fillet with plenty of veg for dinner.

I have to admit I don't count my calories at the moment I think I have a rough idea of what is in things, some FDs are around 300-400, others are probably closer to 700-800. But I always make sure I have nothing but water and green tea until at least lunchtime on a FD.

I am doing this to lose some weight but I'm more interested in the benefits for my health so I'm happy to go slow.

Morning all, apologies am on app so can't reply individually. Was going to have an FD today but am feeling rather stressed re work, so might see how I go with a mini-FD instead. Ironically I will have very limited opportunity to eat today anyway but we'll see how it goes.

Good luck all fasters!

Hi everyone - I’m still chugging along & avoiding the scales! Doing okay though I think - FD today.

On the subject of carbs - I had a very carby dinner last night (cheesey mashed potato & a mountain of cabbage - major comfort food). It was a NFD & I was way under my calories but I woke up hungry this morning & I am never hungry in the morning. Carbs = hunger for me.

fiddle Your night out sounds fine - you planned well.
Weight fluctuates naturally - even when not dieting - due to undigested food, retained water from carbs, hormonal swings etc

So, try to ignore weight blips and look at the trend every 2-3 weeks.
Noone loses every day or even every week, so try to relax and be patient

If you plot a graph, then weight loss, especially on 5:2, looks like a zig-zag curve, trending downwards

Most folk weigh weekly on the morning after FD2 - is this possible for you ? because you won't gain anything significant in a week, if that is what worries you

That's quite normal, Lania Large portions of starchy carbs increase hunger for most folk.

The afternoon / evening before an FD, I recommend people boost protein & veg and don't exceed moderate carb portions, (weights posted upthread) and avoid sweet junk
Also on that NFD, keep to NHS alcohol limits - you really don't want to start an FD with a hangover ! 😂

Today, have extra protein & masses of veg, to help you feel fuller
and drink lots of water

Maud A mini is fine if that helps lower stress on a tough day
Take care of yourself

Good luck, surprised, earslaps, maud, lania and any other Thursday fasters

Urgh I'm finding this so hard. I managed two FDs at 800kcal this week, lost 2lb (however had gained the last two weeks as I didn't fast) im currently 9st 8 and 5ft 6. I had wanted to get to 8st 12 with the view to always staying under 9 stone (I felt like this would be a good way to monitor my weight and do something about it if I crept back up over 9 stone) however I've been losing and gaining this last half a stone for almost a year! Maybe I've reached my "happy weight"? I'm also finding that I'm eating terribly the day after my FDs as I'm so hungry!

I'm thinking that I might keep trying though. I'll up my kcal to 1000kcal FDs as I'm still bf and often tired. I know my main problem is the NFD behaviour. Too much snacking and bad foods. Im finding it hard to stick to a Mediterranean diet. Are there any good Mediterranean cookbooks? Not really a diet one

Thanks everyone. Sorry for the rant. I do read the thread but not caught up, you all post so often! And getting used to the abbreviations. But you all sound lovely so I will make more effort to read all the advice on here.

Hi all, sorry I've been MIA for the last week, busy busy!
But am pleased to report I'm sticking to this and loving it! I've already lost a few pounds (unsure of the exact amount as my scales are very temperamental) and my face looks slimmer and clothes slightly looser after only 1.5 weeks!
DH even made a comment that I look as though I've lost a bit of weight!

This has given me such a boost to carry on as I haven't felt restricted in anyway!

Love it! I even raved about it at an interview I went to today

Love a good 5:2 interview raving! that made me laugh. It's easy to do that when you're feeling so positive about it, definitely. Think I bored my friends senseless when I first started!

Just checking in to say kitchen closed a couple of hours ago around and about 550 on day 2 B2B. Feel back in control and not drank alcohol this week either so all back on track. Carb monster firmly back in the box (until next month anyway ).