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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 83: "Fast" Track your way to fat loss & better health ==> 5:2 your way to the new lean you

976 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 21/01/2019 16:15

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Mosely's TDEE Calc - Exercisers:Use 1 activity level below what you think
Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 21/02/2019 14:49

Argh. ... just logging on to say it's all gone a bit Pete tong this week... I can't stop snacking and eating crappie :-( I think I'm doing a bit of self sabotage tbh, it's 12month anniversary of 5:2 next week and because I'm not quite at weight I wanted to be my brain has gone 'fuck it'!!!! In my mind I've given myself Monday as my fresh start, I know I will be so annoyed when I see how much I weigh and it could have been so much better :-( I'm a twat! Writing it here so it's 'official ' Smile

OohMrDarcy · 21/02/2019 15:33

TiP - completely agree, I'm so lucky to live as close as I do as well!

43 - sorry you are having a crappy time.... any chance you can reign it in now you've posted... even if you're talking to yourself an hour at a time... for the next hour I'm only going to have water for example...its only an hour

with any luck by tomorrow you'll have broken the cycle at least?

OohMrDarcy · 21/02/2019 17:12

Dinner is in the oven warming up, and I'm feeling like I've nailed today so far. On 3rd bottle of water, one cup of tea and that's it so far. I will undo my feasting damage!

Got my trial contacts today , and they are in. I can see well enough to type this which has to be a good start (unless none of you can read it of course!!)

Anyone else fasting today?

BigChocFrenzy · 21/02/2019 19:04

43 STOP right now !
Don't give yourself more time for snacking & crappy eating, because that just prolongs it
You don't want 1000s more junky calories by Monday, or you'll kick yourself when you see the scales

if you can get really tough, then bin every bit of junk in the house - all cake, biscuits, choc, crisps, nutella etc
If it's not there, you don't have to resist it

You know best whether an FD would work tomorrow or Saturday, or whether you just have 3 sensible NFDs with
NO snacking & keeping NHS alcohol limits

We can read you, MrD
Your contact lenses are a success !

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 21/02/2019 19:05

43 Drink a big glass of water and clean your teeth right away.
That's a very useful technique when you are tempted to binge or nibble

OP posts:
OohMrDarcy · 21/02/2019 19:35

Yay to the contacts success, FD also a success and kitchen closed Grin

TalkinPeece · 21/02/2019 20:12

Fortythree
In the immortal words of Rhett Butlet
Tomorrow is another day

Sod Monday, haul it back in tomorrow

DH and I have just had delivery curry for supper
BUT
we had one lentil, two vegetable and one paneer dish washed down with no rice, one bhaji and one naan between us
so I'm feeling good
(in the words of Nina Simone)

Kayemm · 21/02/2019 22:38

Good evening.Smile I now have mfp, thanks. Is there a way to adjust your daily calories to fit with 5 2?

Just entered all my food and drink and was pleasantly surprised at just under 1500. Made a favourite stew for tea which according to the recipe serves 4, we usually eat this between us. Blush. Tonight, he's had his half and I've had a quarter and frozen a quarter at 310 per portion. Half a naan at 188 instead of a full.

Looking at this I'm not surprised I'm 4 stone overweight.

No fit camp tonight , so I did a Joe Wicks beginners and thought I would die. I obviously take it easy when I go to the gym!

MrsD, what are your lenses for? I got the varifocal ones and struggled as nothing seemed quite right so I'm carrying on with 2 pairs of glasses until my next prescription when I'll go for bifocals. (Old gimmer!)

OohMrDarcy · 22/02/2019 07:38

Morning all,
Checking in and I'm back to only 2oz over from the birthday celebrations after one FD... I'm over the moon with that, definitely Learning to keep a better balance and not go OTT.

Kayemm - I think you can do that if you pay for premium but I suspect most like me don't bother. Instead I have my cals set to where I want them, and on FDs I input the food but don't hit complete, or it freaks out and tells you its dangerous to regularly eat that low Grin

The contacts are because I have crap eyes. Worn glasses since I was 3, and always hated them. Wore contacts for a few years before kids and was so much more confident in myself, but pregnancy made my eyes drier and I got out of the habit... the youngest is now 9 so I'm giving them another go! All part of my thinking of me, and making me feel good stuff.

nolongersurprised · 22/02/2019 07:48

Friday evening here.

My weight this am was 69.2, down 300g which I’m pleased with as TOTM is coming up and I can tell I’m retaining fluid. It’s going to be a busy weekend with 3/4 of my children having events or parties as well as the usual sports and swimming but it’s also been a busy week which means I’ve had to miss a few runs. There will be wine 🍷 tonight but just a glass.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 22/02/2019 08:53

Thanks everyone (esp bcf) for the proverbial kick up the bum Grin I'm going to have good nfds today sat and sun and have fd#1 planned for Monday. Don't know what's got into me but I hate loosing control...

Great that your contact lenses are proving hood mrd and well done on the lack of gain. tip that sounds delicious and the type of food I would order also..... mmmmm well done on your sv nolonger

Good luck Fri fasters, I'm out for the day as it's last day of half term so will report back in later Flowers

OohMrDarcy · 22/02/2019 09:53

Glad to see you back and refusing to fall off that wagon 43!

Congrats on the SV surprised!

I'm also going dancing on Sunday again - I started ceroc last year, but couldn't get there often (every fortnight at most)... ended up with work and life getting in the way and I haven't been for about 8 months! Anyway, I've booked an intermediate workshop for Sunday (3.5hrs) so I'll have to practice at home to remember what to do!! Should be good fun anyway - I did always feel SO GOOD after an evening dancing.

Laniakea · 22/02/2019 10:16

Kayemm the dreaded portion control! My dh is completely useless - I made a curry last night and asked him to estimate the total calories in it ... he guessed 400 !!!!! It was actually 2600. I froze half & we split the other half between us, he had rice to bulk it up (!) I don’t eat rice (apart from kedgeree Wink ) so mine was about 700 calories with raita. He would happily eat the whole thing.

Hope the fasters have a good day. It’s my birthday next week & there are various food related activities planned so I’m doing some extra FDs to get ahead of it - today, Sunday & Tuesday, then nothing until next Sunday.

BigChocFrenzy · 22/02/2019 12:04

Well done on your SV, MrD
Told ya ! 😀
Now, own the dance floor on Sunday !

Well done on your SV too, on the cusp of totm, surprised

If you get depressed / discouraged by scales, I recommend avoiding them until totm has finished, because the value may be meaningless - most women retain water during this time

However, keep drinking plenty of water, avoid the totm munchies; then the first FD after the end of totm should zap all the bloat and burn some fat too

That's a healthy habit NSV, to keep to 1 glass tonight, which is about the NHS limit

Kay, Lania That's a good insight about portion size:
Many women put on weight because they eat similar portions to their male OH

However, biology means that even at the same height, weight, age & activity level, a man's calculated TDEE is higher
More usually, the man is taller etc and his TDEE can easily be 1000-1500 than that for the goal weight of the woman

That's good planning , Lania in the runup to your birthday celebrations

Well done , 43 you beat that bullet and you're right back in the fasting swing
Don't worry, 1 day off plan will soon be hauled back
I suggest you don't weigh until after your next FD

OP posts:
PissPotPourri · 22/02/2019 16:42

Hi all. Thanks for your collective words of wisdom 're my bad reactions to fasting. Have taken all on board. Second fast day (this time around) today and am trying upping the protein and salt as advised, as making the standard 5:2 work is my preference to following the 800 version.
I had 2 hard boiled eggs as dinner on my first fd and although I was starving by morning, didn't feel shaky or weak.
Today started with a 5km run with ds and gave had a small avocado dressed with lemon juice and salt so far, on top of 3 black coffees. Have planned a tuna or mackerel and egg salad for dinner...need to look at calorie content of the two fish to decide which one! Am very ready for dinner...
Great to hear all your challenges, tips and victories. You're all very inspiring

BigChocFrenzy · 22/02/2019 18:29

Well done, pisspot
That sounds like good changes which should really help you on FDs

Draining the fish will help avoid any unintended oil calories
Tuna (tinned in brain, drained) is among the lowest cal fish
so maybe keep any canned in oil for NFDs

on FDs, I dress fish or salad with lemon, Balsamic or cider vinegar

OP posts:
Laniakea · 22/02/2019 18:33

I’m done - 450, I might have another miso soup before bed.

2x coffee with milk - 100
Sardines - 150
Ratatouille - 170
Miso soup - 30

Got the kids McDonald’s for dinner - I hate the smell so it’s acting as a useful appetite suppressant!

OohMrDarcy · 22/02/2019 19:18

Thanks once again for the support BigChoc Grin

Right... question for the day for those in the know.... what IS miso soup??

Thanking you

Lania great FD well done

Pisspot that sounds like a good one too, nailing it

EssentialHummus · 22/02/2019 19:37

what IS miso soup??

Grin

It's a mildly salty Japanese (I think) broth made with dried seaweed and fish flakes, and often spring onions floating on top. You can buy it in instant soup format (just add water) at most supermarkets now. It gets a bit tastier (imo) if you add a dash of soy sauce, otherwise it's got quite a subtle taste.

BigChocFrenzy · 22/02/2019 19:43

^Well done on a good FD, Lania

MrD Miso soup is a traditional Japanese soup, only about 35 cals per portion,
which can be used instead of Marmite on FDs to replenish salt & minerals and hence help avoid headaches or weakness

It is very complicated to make from scratch, hence everyone uses a packet !

It is made from a stock called "dashi" into which softened miso is dissolved.

dashi is made by heating kombu (edible kelp) and katsuobushi (flakes of dried skipjack tuna) in water and then straining the resultant liquid

miso is made by fermenting soy beans with sea salt and kōjii^.

Kōji is made by fermenting rice, barley, or soybeans with a mold culture,

OP posts:
Laniakea · 22/02/2019 20:34

Yes you can buy various types as individual sachets of paste - 20-30 calories. I drink so much of it I buy it by the jar www.clearspring.co.uk/collections/traditional-japanese-miso

OohMrDarcy · 22/02/2019 22:53

Thanks all - I'll buy a sachet or two to try I think

SmallFastPenguin · 23/02/2019 17:24

Hello all I would like to come and join you on your helpful thread. I spent an enjoyable morning reading through it all and I am making a start with a NFD.

I have really struggled with my weight for years, lost and regained large amounts which left me feeling awful. I have tried so many diets but I can't stick to most of them for long. I find it really hard to cope with dietary restrictions as I am quite a fussy eater and hate to give up my favourite foods. I like the idea of 5:2 as I can still eat my normal foods in sensible amounts on NFD. It also makes me feel like if I do get to my goal weight I have more hope of maintaining as I will already be eating the right way.

My worst problem is snacking on biscuits and cake in the evening which I know has to stop Biscuit. I don't want to cut out sugar and sweets entirely but I will try to limit them to fit into my calorie allowance and stick to having a dessert as part of a meal not on it's own as a snack.

Am I right in setting my activity level for TDEE as lightly active I walk the dog fairly slowly about 1.5hrs a day 4 or 5 days a week, and do a busy 3 hrs lunch shift in a canteen Mon-Fri. I am planning to start walking to work most days too which would be another 30 mins walking. The rest of my time is fairly sedentary though so I don't want to over estimate my allowances.

TalkinPeece · 23/02/2019 17:52

Hi there SmallFast
Welcome to the gang.
Cutting out the evening biscuits will help with your weight loss, but it will also contribute towards reducing your risk of multiple chronic diseases later in life.
If you can close the kitchen between meals
you are well on your way.

BigChocFrenzy · 24/02/2019 00:13

Welcome, penguin 🙂

Probably the key for you is cutting put all snacks between meals, especially evenings
and having any treats - including alcohol or lattes - only as part of NFD meals, in sensible quantities

Use the NFDs to develop these kinds of healthy habits for longterm weight maintenance

Once you get near goal, you can choose a maintenance plan,
because the reason diets often "fail" is that people go straight back to the habits that put on the weight.
No need to go throught that cycle again.

Our aim on these threads is to get to Happy Weight Range with healthy habits - and stay there permanently

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