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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 83: "Fast" Track your way to fat loss & better health ==> 5:2 your way to the new lean you

976 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 21/01/2019 16:15

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Mosely's TDEE Calc - Exercisers:Use 1 activity level below what you think
Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
snailhunter · 08/02/2019 15:58

Here's to all you strong ladies: you're all an inspiration to me and I hope you all have awesome relaxing weekends.

I'm happy here as after all my whinging, I'm down to 10st again, hooray. Must remember to whinge more! Happy Friday!

harriethoyle · 08/02/2019 16:23

Hey @bigchoc! I'm having a NFD with pizza and wine tonight Grin probably going to do a Sunday fast I think and possibly b2b to Monday.

TalkinPeece · 08/02/2019 17:50

Checking in before I have supper tonight.
Weighed myself this morning and I'm 1.4 kg down on the week which I'm very happy with.
Supper tonight is baked Camembert with salad and wine
but I did do a mile swim and an hour of yoga and a BodyBalance class today so I'm chilled

its amazing how the discipline of daily posting is keeping me focussed
:-)

Be well all and NO SNACKING

OohMrDarcy · 08/02/2019 18:30

Evening all,

Kitchen closed on around 450 which I've veey happy with.
Water
3 x tea with splash of milk
Beef casserole - celery, leek, carrot, Swede, chopped tomatoes, kidney beans

Delicious.

TiP will you not have anything to dip in the camembert or will you go for raw carrot etc? Love that stuff

HicDraconis · 08/02/2019 18:55

MrD I’m going for shodan later this year. Our teacher suggests (in the “warning - you have a grading this year” letter) that we need to be seen regularly training hard, we must attend camp / sparring / kata classes, help out in junior classes if able (which I can’t due to work hours), run both 5km runs at camp ... the grading itself is 2h nonstop syllabus then 40 rounds of sparring.

BigChoc Problem is picking a rest day! Monday classes are compulsory, Tuesday beginners I really enjoy, Thursday sparring is compulsory, Saturday triple is taken by our chief instructor (need to be seen to be there!) and Sunday I really enjoy. Maybe I’ll drop the run on Wednesday and have a midweek break. Biking to work and back can’t be dropped but it’s a fairly easy run there and back.

Weekend here is looking good - aside from a raging wildfire that’s been going since Tuesday. It’s very close to where we have karate camp and the run .... camp is in 3 weeks ... how terrible is it to want it not to be completely sorted until after camp? I hate running, wouldn’t have to do the 5km if they moved camp location 😂

OohMrDarcy · 08/02/2019 19:20

Sounds a very different style to the ones I did Hic - but good for you! If the gradings are anything like mine, they were at the end of a weekend course... so you'd do 4 hrs on the saturday, 3hrs on the Sunday then a 2hr grading (with food breaks)..... exhausting, but if you've trained enough its perfectly doable.

Don't stress yourself out, just get there as much as you can feasibly.

HicDraconis · 08/02/2019 19:31

Our gradings are on Wednesday nights at black belt class. You start with speeches (and have to write a 3 page or longer essay on karate and what it brings to your life), then it’s 2h of combinations, self defences, kata, kihon, yakusoku, 40 ippons (immediate block/retaliate on the spur of the moment), 20 defences against a weapon or street attack (block and then 4-5 techniques to disable opponent), then 40 rounds of sparring.

It starts at 6.30 and usually finishes around 11pm.

My two boys are grading with me (junior shodan) and have to do the same (at 11 and 12!) - I’ve already told them they can have the rest of the week off school afterwards.

Omg I’m feeling slightly scared just listing it!!

HicDraconis · 08/02/2019 19:32

Oh and no food, water or toilet breaks! It’s meant to push us to our limits both physically and mentally and then push slightly further.

BigChocFrenzy · 08/02/2019 19:40

Well done on your SV, TiP
Yes, daily posting can really help focus

Congrats on your SV too, snail and the 10 stone milestone
As you are already within healthy BMI and probably going through perimeno, you are losing at the rate your body can manage
So focus, a lot of patience and you'll get there

Well done on a delicious & healthy FD, MrD

HIC Your instructor is evil !
but he sounds like he'll push you all into the grades you want.

Harriet Ah, you had a chilled Friday too

I had supper at my fav Rhine cafe, owned by a master Patissserie chef 😀
After a virtuous huge mixed salad with egg & granary bread, plus a mug of mulled cider

  • all produced locally -
I enjoyed one of his beautiful individual lemon meringue tarts, so pretty and so light it nearly floated off the plate into my mouth 😀

Lunch was pretty indulgent too: a big cheese fondue with seedy rye rolls & no added sugar jam
I feel stuffed - Tomorrow will be a mini !

Anyone else can't resist melted cheese in winter ? Hmm

OP posts:
OohMrDarcy · 08/02/2019 19:51

Hic - that is proper hardcore, and after 2 kids I'd have no chance on the no loo breaks!!! Also - the essay would be enough to make me not want to bother..... really intense your gradings! Keep us posted, I'll be rooting for you!

ohhh BigChoc - another melted cheese post! I bloody love it, don't let myself have it often... and carefully plan it when I do - or I'd eat an entire baked camembert to myself with crusty french bread dipped in and a glass of wine and I'd be in heaven!

Anyone who enjoys camping - I made a delicious baked camembert in the remainder of my bbq coals last summer (wrapped in foil).... was SO GOOD.

TalkinPeece · 08/02/2019 20:03

Darcy
Our Camembert is hard core .... sliced horizontally with a layer of fried onions and pancetta and then put back together and wrapped in puff pastry before baking and served with home made chutney
calorific bomb but so lush

EssentialHummus · 08/02/2019 20:35

Ooh talk that sounds incredible! I’m another cheese fan. DH have a date night at hone every few months that usually involves a baked camembert, some cured meats and a good wine. I might try your recipe next time.

TalkinPeece · 08/02/2019 20:42

Hummus
On the basis that for a lot of us its an NFD ....
www.750g.com/feuillete-au-camembert-lardons-et-pommes-de-terre-r201117.htm

OohMrDarcy · 08/02/2019 20:49

oh

em

gee

That sounds incredible.... But I'm fasting so extremely not helpful Grin

EssentialHummus · 08/02/2019 20:54

talk thank you, that looks so yummy! I've bookmarked it.

Laniakea · 08/02/2019 20:57

I find NFDs harder than FD sometimes Hmm I can never figure out what I want to eat, then feel vaguely guilty when I do eat. I'm feeling a bit grotty (cold brewing I think) & unmotivated so today was whatever I could find in the cupboard/freezer

3x coffee & milk (150)
lunch - beans on toast (450)
dinner - spinach pie & salad (500 for the pie & salad had half an avocado & a few olives as well as tomatoes etc so not sure the calories in that)

I was aiming for 1400 so think that's okay. Had lots of water & mint tea too. I'll probably fast tomorrow, got a really busy day which is nicely distracting!

BigChocFrenzy · 08/02/2019 21:10

< covers MrD's eyes ! >

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 08/02/2019 21:13

That looks OK, lania
Proper mealsm plenty of veg there and you'd probably be well under TDEE
Next NFDs, I suggest you boost protein, to stay full

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 08/02/2019 21:14

Now you know you can do NFDs as well, Lania you can feel more relaxed 🙂

OP posts:
slinkyme · 08/02/2019 21:46

All these gorgeous cheese dishes. All sounds divine. I need to up the quality of my NFDs. I am very impressed. And why not - life is to be enjoyed.

HicDraconis · 08/02/2019 22:00

Not that it’s winter here - but we had some friends staying with us from Japan, and they made camembert tempura. It is phenomenal. (As were the gyoza, all the other things they dipped in tempura batter and deep fried!). You can dip it in soy sauce or a warmed and runny cranberry sauce and it is honestly heaven in chopsticks.

HicDraconis · 08/02/2019 22:12

Laniakea I know what you mean about NFD. I find that logging everything helps because I know I should be aiming for TDEE (around 16-1800 for me depending on exercise levels - I’m really short!!) so I feel less guilty when I see the numbers come in under it. Also changing the mindset of FD = 500 and NFD = unlimited/eat what you want which was a huge issue for me. NFD for me is now = eat well, eat sensibly and enjoy it (breakfast so far - omelette with 2 eggs, bacon and mushrooms for 350).

I think a lot of people struggling with weight and diets and food intake in general have that vague unease when they eat - but the reality is we have to eat a certain amount of fats, proteins, carbs, etc to stay alive. It’s why I’m really loving the 5:2 way - I don’t feel guilt if I enjoy the 5 and I can cope with the 2 because I can always budget whatever it was I wanted into the 5 for the next day :) it gets easier too.

OohMrDarcy · 09/02/2019 07:38

Morning all

Weigh in day here.... down another 2.2lbs making a total of 1st 3.4lb

😁

BigChocFrenzy · 09/02/2019 08:49

Well done on your SV, MrD
You're heading towards your 20lb milestone

I'm fasting today
Anyone else ?

OP posts:
Parsley65 · 09/02/2019 09:01

Guess it's quieter here at the weekends when we're all munching Grin
A couple of people have asked why I decided to eat nothing on my two fast days. It was something I read 2 or 3 years ago on the original Michael Mosley 5/2 discussion group and it just resonated with me. I know it isn't for everyone and it sounds extreme, but I genuinely find it easier not to eat than to faff about with calories. That way I don't have to think about food at all on those days and it suits me.

Believe me this isn't a fad thing for me. I believe that this is something I can keep up for months or years and am sure that in our thousands of years of evolution, our bodies were designed for both feast and famine.

ATM I am not really cutting back on the other 5 days (though will see how the weight loss goes) and feel wonderful.
Have a fabulous weekend everyone...