5:2 Thread number 83: "Fast" Track your way to fat loss & better health ==> 5:2 your way to the new lean you

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Mosely's TDEE Calc - Exercisers:Use 1 activity level below what you think
Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Correct box you haven't failed, just postponed your fd

Well done hummus do you have access to mfp? It's great for counting calories.

Mmmm tip your Boston beans sound delicious.

Oh dear snail poor ds, hope he's on the mend soon. Well done on your 2 fds

Bed for me as I'm shattered, feel like I'm starting with something, or it could just be combination of fd and totm (my autocorrect changed totm to torment, not bloody wrong is it!) Well done everyone

Evening all

Welcome Parsley, I believe a zero calorie fast for that long can be dangerous so I wouldn't recommend... I believe 23 hrs is the longest you should go on zero... so you could do dinner time on your normal day, to dinner time on Fast day - have a 500 cal meal, and then go to breakfast or whatever.... but I wouldn't go in the region of 36 which I guess it would be to skip the entire day... BigChoc will be along with advice soon I'm sure

Box, a chicken breast with sweet potato fries is hardly awful... so take it as a mini or NFD depending on what you think and move on - its all good.

FD for me tomorrow, got a meeting at a coffee shop that does lovely cake, but I shall resist and stick to tea. Going to be having beef casserole for dinner so I'll save most of my calories to enjoy that (one of my favourites!)

Well done to everyone fasting today!

kitchen closed at around 700.
we had quiche and a portion is about 600...

I now feel as if I've swallowed a brick

Blimey, I turn my back for a moment three weeks and there's a new thread! Checking in half way through after several weeks of postponed FD while trying to wrap my head around my training schedule.

Does this sound reasonable? :
Monday: 30 minute run, 10km bike ride, 2h karate, NFD
Tuesday: 30 minute run, 10km bike ride, 1h karate, NFD
Wednesday: 30 minute run, 10km bike ride, no karate, FD1
Thursday: 30 minute run, 10km bike ride, 2h karate, NFD
Friday: 30 minute run, no karate, FD2
Saturday: 3.5h karate, NFD
Sunday: 1-2h karate, NFD

Have decided to quit wine completely for a while in favour of low sugar orange juice and soda water (30cal a glass), mint tea and my coffee which I cannot live without.

Can't post any SV or NSV currently as trying to get back to the weight I was when I started 5:2 before Christmas last year and before I got the shock of my "you have to train hard you're grading this year" letter

However. Onwards and Upwards.

Oh and FD2 this week for me! go all Friday fasters!

Blimey hic do you compete professionally in karate? That's a lot of training.

Hey guys,
A successful FD here for me too, in or around 44.
Lunch, a plate of mixed leaves, 1/2 a tomato, some mozzarella and tuna. Dinner was home made sausage casserole. I had mine with extra vegetables.
Best of luck to everyone fasting tomorrow!

Well done on the loose clothes NSV, JC

Im sure you looked strong and cool today, Borris
I hope you sorted out business

Box "FDs are never failed, just postponed"
5:2 has to fit your life, so it's always ok to move an FD which clashes with something else

well done on your FD, Lania
To help avoid FD headaches while you are getting used to fasting, glug a teasp Marmite (10 cals) mid-morning & mid-afternoon
This replenishes salt and minerals which are often low before your body adapts to the lower amount of food on FDs

Many folk feel a bit colder on FDs - it's a natural effect of less food and also makes you burn a bit more fat
If you fancy a hot drink without calories, Rooibos tea is naturally sweet.
Also other herbal teas are warming, especially ginger

Welcome, Parsley and good luck 🙂
We're a very friendly bunch, so you'll find lots of support here

I strongly recommend you eat your 500 cals on FDs
This is so that over the weeks of this WOL you retain all your muscle and give your body sufficient nutrients every day
Muscle retention is important for health, shape and future maintenance too

On standard 5:2 or 4:3, with 500 cal FDs, you'll retain all your muscle, which is one of the advantages of this WOE over standard daily calorie restriction diets
So, keep all the advantages you can

Research by Dr Varady compared those fasting on 0 cals and different calorie amounts on FDs
The optimum results overall for weight loss and muscle retention

You did well, boys to manage an FD and a mini after this tough week
Now make the most of your time on your own and stock up on sleep

green I hope the brick tasted nice 😏
Sounds fine

Well done fasters !

HIC That's an amazing exercise schedule
Are you competing professionally and do you have a PT who is supervising your overall training ?

Currently you don't have a training restday, to let your body recuperate as normally recommended
==> I recommend making use of FD1 for this, i.e. drop the run and bike ride for that day

With the amount of exercise you are doing, people don't normally have FDs
e.g. we have had some marathon runners on 5:2, but they normally drop FDs about 3 months before a race, or do 13:1

==> I recommend you do 1000 cal FDs, because you need the extra nutrients with all that exercise
(It's what the BFers do and your body is going through much more than that)
You should lose easily enough on that schedule

==> If you are already below BMI 20, then I recommend you do NOT do any FDs, with your exercise regime
Intemittent fasting is not suitable for low BMI female athletes on intensive training

Instead, do daily 12:12 (12-hr eating window), cut right back on alcohol, sugar, flavoured fizzy drinks, any other junk and eat nutritious food within TDEE

Wow hic I'm sweaty and breathless just reading your regime

Good luck on your Friday fds mrd and hic

Well I'm down 2 pounds so very happy with that when you weigh yourself do you just step on the scale once? I stepped on the scale and it didn't seem right so I stepped on it again and was 2 pounds lighter. In total I stepped on it about 4 times and the last 3 were all the same. Which do I go by?

Morning all,

Checking in for a NFD. Might make it more of a mini and just have normal dinner as I know I'll have a couple of drinks later. See how I get on.

Yesterday was the worst day, everything that could go wrong did go wrong including losing work train tickets and having to replace them with my own money to go to an event I didn't want to go to. However big NSV is despite everything going wrong, I didn't comfort eat - and most importantly didn't have a drink - when I got home because it was Thursday and 'I don't eat over TDEE and don't drink alcohol on a Thursday'. Rules really help me! Anyway, that was the only tiny glimmer of positivity in a day of shit so I'm taking it!

Can't remember who it was who does B2B on Monday and Tuesday and was wondering about the rest of the week - I'm the same and tend to do Mon/Tues fast but then feel I need another on Thurs or Fri so I tend to aim for a bit below TDEE those days. Kind of like TiP's plan but on different days. That feels about right at the moment.

Have a great day everyone

@jc I would use whichever weight you got repeatedly (particularly if that's the lower one ).

Friday fast day done and dusted at 525 :-)

I’m not competing professionally - however I am increasing my usual training (karate Mon/Tues/Sat/Sun) because I have black belt grading coming up this year and it’s impossible to be too fit. The runs are a new thing but the bike ride is to work so it’s something I’m used to. Sunday is my rest day - usually only one hour training and it’s a great class.

I wish my BMI was under 20 😂 believe it or not I have to lose a good 10kg to get it under 30! Hoping I’ll convert some of the fat to muscle in the process.

I’ll probably drop the FD (or increase the cals to 1000) when I get my 8 week notice.

Good luck all Friday fasters!

Morning all

HIC - what grade are you? I got to 2nd Dan in two different styles without ever training that much! I regularly trained 2x a week at a class, plus maybe 20 mins another time at home. When gradings were coming up I'd up it to 3x a week... plus any courses I suppose so maybe 3 x a year I'd do 4 x ..... Good luck! I'm sure you'll rock it.

Well done on the SV JC and the NSV Scruffy!

I'm good to go on my FD.... with beef casserole in the slow cooker to entice me for later!

excellent SV jc well done, and I'd go for the lower reading

oh dear scruffy what a rubbish day but well done for not caving in

NFD today and woken up hungry but waiting until lunch to break fast, nipping to a friends later for a bottle of wine and a natter so need to be mindful about what I consume today....

Happy friday peeps

Wow I won’t mess with you hic

Thanks for all the well wishes about the meeting. The good points are that I felt strong, stood up or ignored his criticisms, did not bow to what he wanted (replacing dd one hour of gym - on one of “my” nights, with an hour of handwriting practise!!!!). The bad thing is that we’re no further forwards with selling the house. But overall came away feeling satisfied.

MrD - I’ve swapped cups of cappuccino/latte in coffee shops for tea. It’s win win as last visit it was £1 for a cup of normal tea and £3 for a posh coffee

Scruffy - hope today is better for you. Well done for not reaching for crisis and choc!!

43 - enjoy your wine and chat later 🍷

Scruffy What rotten luck with the tickets yesterday, but you did brilliantly not to comfort eat or drink
That was a great new habit NSV

That shows your strength, Borris in standing up for yourself and your DC

Yes, tea is usually a better choice than fancy lattes, which can sometimes have the calories of a small meal, but without much nutritional value
Your purse will be fatter and you will be leaner

HIC Your karate sounds brilliant
and dropping into a lower BMI class would probably help you to progress even further
So that's the 1st main milestone to nail and then celebrate.

Good news is, with a fair bit to lose, your weight should drop pretty quickly for the next few weeks,
which keeps motivation high
You must have a lot of muscle, so your ideal weight would probably be in the upper range of healthy BMI

You sound fine to do FDs, but I still would recommend one of them on a complete rest day, say just a relaxed walk
It probably would improve your fitness, as your body needs downtime to repair and rebuild the muscle fibres
My previous gym had one of the physios for the England women's team at a particular sport, who always recommended 1 complete restday; so do the competitive lifters I've known

We'll celebrate with you when you get your new grade
You are working so hard you really will have earned it

What often boosts your weight loss is looking at NFDs:
no snacking, cut back alcohol to NHS limits, cut right back on sugary treats & flavoured fizzy drinks, plenty of still water
That also helps form permanent healthy habits, which are so important later for maintenance, or when you drop FDs near an event.

MrD Can you take up your karate training again regularly each week ?
It sounds like you really enjoyed it and did very well
It would boost fitness and maybe give an extra kick to your rate of loss
Another step on the road to building the new fit MrD

Enjoy your meal with your friend, 43
Since you are being mindful, remember the NHS daily limit of 3 units, which is about 250 ml average strength wine,
so 1 big glass or 2 very small ones.

Well done on your SV, JC
Good progress, along with your loose clothes NSV earlier

How to Weigh
. use the same scales in the same place on a hard, level surface - not carpet
. ideally 1st thing in the morning before drinking or eating anything, but after loo
. and weigh yourself naked
. Switch on the scales and count to 3, so they have time to balance, then step on - don't jump
. Keep still and don't lean to the side or back / front

Hi harriet what are you doing today ?

Another lovely sunny day here
I've just finished a strength & flexibility class,
so a quick shower and then off to enjoy a peaceful Rhine walk in the sun
This afternoon, I have 40 mins hand & foot massage, my regular treat to start the weekend. Bliss ! 🙂

Good luck to the Friday fasters !

Yesterday was an ok day, stayed under TDEE so I'm happy with that, boys are with their dad so i went to a HIIT class, I ache all over but I feel good and I had a great nights sleep last night!

@Borris that's great! My STBEXH is of the same mindset, 'I'll do the fun things now you do all the parenting lark', although I'm not quite where you are yet, constantly reminding him the house can't be sold until the boys are older (he's not paying a penny grrrr). Stay strong, you're doing an amazing job!

Thanks @snail, I'll use that one!

That's great @43 I'd love that will power!

Hi @Parsley, welcome aboard!

@Jc eggs are protein, go for it haha! Well done on your SV, deffo take the 3 readings!

Well done @Harriet that's amazing!

@Lani that sounds like a great plan, hope you got peace and quiet!

@green, @TIP, @Hummous, @snail, @cheeeis well done on your FD!

Oh yum @MrDarcy, sounds lovely!

@hic wow, just....wow!

@scruffy that's a really positive NSV, well done!

Good luck to all the fasters, I'm back on schedule fully for next week !

ooh bcf your day sounds lovely, enjoy the massage.... what i'd give for a bit of sunshine right now, hmmmm, I'll just go back to staring out of my grey rainy Manchester window and continue day dreaming
We are just sharing a bottle over a catch up and maybe some bombay mix so i should be within limits

well done borris on keeping calm and collected

gah boys that sounds awful (and bloody unfair) for you, but at least he is consistently reminding you why his is your EX pathetic man

ahh BigChoc - unfortunately not. I stopped after my youngest was born as I wasn't physically able to get there without childcare (no comments needed on the ExH!)

Much as I loved karate at the time, I wouldn't go back now - the teacher is someone I would not choose to spend time with (unfortunate as I've known him since I was 15 and he is god parent to my children), the man has a lot of issues, but also I don't have enough free time to do it. It is something I'd consider when the youngest is old enough to be left alone maybe, but to a different club!

Well done on the HIIT, Boys
Sorry to hear you are yet another with a deadbeat Ex who won't pay for his own kids
One thing I've always admired about the USA is how efficiently they track down deadbeat dads & enforce payment with serious legal penalties