5:2 Thread number 83: "Fast" Track your way to fat loss & better health ==> 5:2 your way to the new lean you

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Mosely's TDEE Calc - Exercisers:Use 1 activity level below what you think
Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

I've re read and will try to clarify!

I like the idea of 800kcal a day. But I can't have low cal evening meals. 800kcal is 1600kcal for 2 days. So 1600kcal divided by the 6 meals (breakfast lunch and dinner for 2 days) is 265kcal, so spread over three days at 2 meals a day (breakfast and lunch) is 530kcal. So I will ensure breakfast and lunch is total 530kcal on 3 days and eat sensibly for all evening meals and on non fast days.

I also do a 14hr overnight fast every day

Right! I think that makes more sense!

Hi Dontfundhate

The maths had me a bit confused but I think there's a couple of things you need to do -

• First calculate your personal TDEE (link in the first post) as that will tell you how many calories you need per day if you wanted to stay the same weight as you dare

• Then consider how to arrange your meals to get to the deficit that fasting would give you to lose weight. For example, my TDEE is around 1600. My fast days usually come in around 600 which gives me a deficit of 1000 cals twice per week. If I ate exactly my TDEE every other day of the week I would be 2000 calories under per week which should lead to me losing a little weight.

• Therefore, you need to work out what your own deficit would be with 500cal fasting (eg TDEE - 500). Then you can adjust your meals to suit. BCF often recommends 3x1000 cal days rather than 2x500 cal days for those who find 500 just too difficult. It gives the same sort of deficit over the week I think.

Hope that makes sense (clear as mud I'm sure!)

Hi Dontfundhate

The maths had me a bit confused but I think there's a couple of things you need to do -

• First calculate your personal TDEE (link in the first post) as that will tell you how many calories you need per day if you wanted to stay the same weight as you dare

• Then consider how to arrange your meals to get to the deficit that fasting would give you to lose weight. For example, my TDEE is around 1600. My fast days usually come in around 600 which gives me a deficit of 1000 cals twice per week. If I ate exactly my TDEE every other day of the week I would be 2000 calories under per week which should lead to me losing a little weight.

• Therefore, you need to work out what your own deficit would be with 500cal fasting (eg TDEE - 500). Then you can adjust your meals to suit. BCF often recommends 3x1000 cal days rather than 2x500 cal days for those who find 500 just too difficult. It gives the same sort of deficit over the week I think.

Hope that makes sense (clear as mud I'm sure!)

Sorry for double post - system crashed mid post.

You can tell I'm putting off going for my run...I've even done (bad!) Maths

Dontfundhate
Here is a weekly plan that I have used on and off for the last 7 years ....

Monday = 500 calories fast day ~ no breakfast, no lunch, 100 calories of milk in tea, HUGE veg stir fry / soup for supper 400 calories
Tuesday = sedentary TDEE less 10% ~ no breakfast, 400 calories lunch, 100 calories of milk in tea, remainder of allowance in supper
Wednesday = as Tuesday
Thursday = as Monday
Friday = as Tuesday and Wednesday
Saturday = relax and enjoy
Sunday = as Tuesday and wednesday

I can reliably lose 2lb a week with that method

I’ve sts this week. Hopefully I’ll get a whoosh next week

What is a low-cal dinner? I save all my calories for one single evening meal on my FD and have loads that come in at under 450 calories and are suitable for the whole family (without them knowing it's diet food.) Generally done via Portion control and either low carb OR no meat. Could give you some options if you think it would help.

Welcome, Dontfund 🙂

If I've understand your proposed system, that is not having FDs
It sounds more like an ordinary diet, plus a restricted eating windown, but not done every day

A fast day is basically about 36 hours: sleep#1 + daytime + sleep#2

During those 36 hours you have TOTAL 500 calories, or 800 calories if you don't mind losing slowly or you have a high TDEE (2400+)

Alternatively, you could have 3 days, e.g. Mon+Wed+Fri, eating TOTAL within 1000 cals

On the NFDs, you need to be maintaining, so if you need a rough guide, eating & drinking within TDEE

Check your TDEE with Mosely's TDEE Calc
He recommends that exercisers calculate with one activity lvel lower than they think

important

1. You will only lose if you consistently achieve a weekly calories deficit, i.e. you consume fewer than you burn
   To lose 1lb weekly needs about a 3,000 calorie deficit

2. Do NOT eat back calories on FDs or NFDs via gadgets, or you'll be eating back twice.
   The NFDs allow for any exercise via TDEE.
   The FDs don't have any extra allowance for exercsie

Thanks bcf for the words of encouragement, I so can't wait to be out the other side of the menopause!

Well done on your sv pop
borris fingers crossed for a whoosh next week...

Welcome dontfund and good luck I will admit I started reading your post and got lost luckily bcf and others will point you in the right direction

Checking in again. Thought I had the sugar addiction cracked until I did some shopping on my way home from the gym and all I could think about was donuts and flapjack. If i'm honest I'm struggling a bit with the realisation that I may never be able to trust myself enough around it, so total abstinence for now is my only option. Which is sad. Why can't I exercise some self-control?

Changing the subject I made my first sourdough loaf today. Lets just say there's plenty of room for improvement. Too hot to cut into at the moment but really hoping to see something tastier-looking on the inside than the outside.

Have a wedding to go to in October. Going to aim for 3 x 1000 days per week to keep the weight in check. Hopefully lack of sugar and gym circuits will gradually banish the tummy fat.

Enjoy your run Scruffy. NSV I did a sub 9:30 mile on Friday - almost sprinting for me!

Sorry, just realised my last comment didn't make much sense. I was just trying to point out to Don'tfund that family meals can fit in with this way of eating, in case that was her issue with notbeing able to fast through the evening.

Aah thank you all. My TDEE is 1850. I'm still getting my head around this all! I can see that I'm not really doing fast days now! But I reckon my total calorie intake would be about 1000 for the 3 days as we do eat healthily anyway, so interested to see what happens by the end of the week! I'll keep reading up on everything, little and often as it's a lot to get my head around! Thank you everyone

@pop that would be amazing thank you, that's totally why I'm struggling. DP is a joiner and have two small active DSs so needs to be filling and something the kids will like and quick to do... Phew!

Granny You are doing really well, being very strong & focused
I'm sure you'll soon add good sourdough loafs to your skillset

I'd say you need to avoid added sugar until it is no longer madly tempting, but just a pleasant prospect, like looking forward to a tasty savour dish

• that would mean the addiction has gone.

Also, no need to go low carb, but remember to keep starchy carb portions moderate

I remember a doctor who works in this field with private patients saying (podcast) that sugar addiction takes at least 3 months to go
and some people can cautiously have occasional sugary treats, at most one per week, but others never can.

I wonder if those 3 months are reversing insulin resistance and possible pre-T2, i.e. it is a physical addiction during this period
and that some people can reverse it permanently, but others find even an occasional portion starts to bring back the insulin resistance.

There may also be a difference in what someone could tolerate,
e.g. maybe a homemade or good restaurant apple pie with apple, cinammon, sugar and pastry is ok,
but not a mass produced donut or confectionary bar that has no nutritional value and is just junk.

Dontfund On your miniFDs, I recommend you just have black coffee for breakfast and soup for lunch, so you can have a good supper with the family - typically 800 cals if you have reasonably healthy meals

3 days of 1000 cals should give you a decent rate of loss with that sort of meals.
See how you go 🙂
remember never snack between meals, even on NFDs

The key to fasting with family is to choose a meal where the components are separate,
so you can skip the fatty / creamy sources amd cut down on the starchy carbs, but enjoy the protein and add masses of different veg
e.g. avoid pasta dishes where meat, pasta, sauce etc are mixed in

e.g. have roast dinner:
You have as much meat as you want - trim off the fat on your plate - plus say 4 different veg sides e.g. carrots, peas, leeks, broccoli piled high on your plate
Have 1 potato - not mash - and a tbsp of gravy, with horseradish or mint sauce to replace the rest

Your family has lots more potato, Yorkshires, gravy, cauliflower cheese (an MN minefield if that belongs with a roast, but I have it !)

e.g. have stew:
Pack it with meat, also lentils / beans - good for stabilising blood sugar - onions, tomato, carrot
and have the potato seperate - not mash or fried
Again, have a couple of extra veg sides you can pile on your plate and just have 1 potato

43 The whole no-periods bit is sooo great !
Just focus on that
It's 11 years since my last < dances >
I was very lucky, with few symptoms - except I can no longer eat as much choc 😭

Evening all,

Another healthy NFD here - kitchen closed around goal TDEE once again, without trying I must add. I'm thoroughly confused by it all trying to work out if my head has ended up back in the right place or not, as I'm not struggling to eat to goal TDEE at all - sometimes I make myself have a dessert as I'm under it!

Pulled pork going in the slow cooker for tomorrow to be had with wraps / corn on the cob I think (plus any other veg I can think of that sound like they will work!).

Next FD is Friday for me - going to be a little tricky as have a meeting in a coffee shop, but I shall show restraint and stick to a pot of tea.

BigChoc - I'm intrigued.... whats with the no mash stuff in your previous posts? Is that just re FDs ? I have it at least once a week with things like cottage pie / stew / lamb shanks - but not on FDs , tend to be low / no carb on those.

Sorry I've not caught up on posts yet all - you got busy chatting!

I think the mash talk was just saying if you are trying to have a FD meal that the rest of the family is having, you could skip mash (which has butter and cream and is quite calorific when you load up a portion on the plate) and instead have a spud at about 140 calories (depending on size)

Hello, flat pack here with my shiny new February name change 😁.

Fast day with built in walking (raining cats and dogs here). I am getting a bit bored with soup for lunch so will have a salad of some sort.

Hope everyone has a good FD.

Welcome Dontfund. There are lovely people on here who give the best support and advice.

Oh Granny, I hope your sourdough was yum. I am attempting to make a gluten free starter at the moment and am very optimistic. I have a huge weakness with regard to sugar also. It is solo tough.

In other news I live a good woosh and I have had my first proper one since I rejoined this thread a few weeks ago. I weighed in Monday morning and was disappointed to.find a slight gain and I was up to 84.6kg. I weighed myself again this morning after my 2nd FD of the week yesterday and I have dropped down to 83.4. so that us a very respectable loss of 1.2kg.

Looking forward to sourdough and raspberries for breakfast later. Lunch will likely be a soup and an omelette or salad and falafels. Dinner this evening is chicken cacciatore which is one of my favourites. I think I need to check in here more in my NFDs as I think that will help to keep me in track and not loose the run of myself.

Good luck to all of today's fasters.

Morning all, FD today. At home with DD so sticking to coffee and sparkling water until supper time. Hopefully we’ll have a busy morning out at playgroup so the time will fly by! Good luck to other fasters.

Hello fellow Thursday FD'ERS!!

FD 2 for me today, not sure what's on the menu today, but it's a busy day so that helps!
I have found my people with the sugar cravings.
Went to my mils yesterday and she had a lovely roast dinner for me, I had the mash but I mashed them so knew what was in them! Just a splash of milk and a little butter!
Very pleased because I easily said no to Apple tart which is always hard especially when custard is on offer.
I had a fruit scone as well yesterday when I met my friend and had jam and cream, which isn't ideal, but they didn't sell a fruit salad or anything, it was that or cake,I skipped breakfast purposefully as I knew I was meeting my friend. So it wasn't awful.

Plenty water for me today as I have slipped on it. Mostly because of how much I need to wee, does your bladder ever improve if drinking lots of water?

Morning everyone, FD for me today too. Don't feel like it's going to go as well as Monday but fingers crossed!! Good luck all other fasters

morning fellow thursday fasters FD here also, I've not managed one yet this week what with totm etc so fingers crossed I can get through today....

cheee that sounds like not a bad NFD at all....

Cake in the kitchen so I must resist!!! Poo crumbs, poo crumbs, poo crumbs