Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 82: Diet 2 days, eat "normally" on 5 days and retrain your "normal" to what your body burns

985 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 07/12/2018 23:37

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Mosely's TDEE Calc - Exercisers:Use 1 activity level below what you think
Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
Alwayscheerful · 17/12/2018 11:43

I am low carbing and managing to fast between 6pm and 12.00 noon every day, actually I manage until 11.45!
I am Finding the information about weight, carbs and extra water retention helpful.

Can anyone recommend a decent set of bathroom scales, I have looked on John Lewis website but some of the reviews are a little strange I am happy to pay £50 ish or more for a recommended set of bathroom scales.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 17/12/2018 11:48

high fives harriet and cheddar Grin

There are LOADS of chocolate biscuits in the staff kitchen and my stomach is rumbling loudly just thinking about them! But I have taken 1 and put it in my desk drawer for thurs (how sad is that!)

Weds will be my last FD over xmas although I'm going to be travelling on 29th so I reckon I could manage one then if I'm disciplined, but yes, I will also be skipping breakfast in the hope that it helps limit any damage Xmas Grin

Oh my, i'd love a BMI under 25, I'm only .4 away at the moment.... but its hopefully something that'll I'll have to think about soon (well, defo after xmas) in terms of where I try to stop (eek, i've never anticipated a goal weight ever before in my life!) I think psychologically I'd love to see my weight starting with a 10 on the scales, so maybe 10 st 12lb / 13lb which would be a BMI of 23.8, but that means loosing another 10lb, and I'm not sure.... everyone now is telling me I don't need to lose any more weight, although as I tell them technically I am still in the overweight category - do you just know when you get 'there'???

BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 13:15

I'm glad you found us again, bug
Don't worry, now you are back in the fasting swing, you'll soon get rid of those very few pre-Xmas pounds

fleabag The snowploughs cleared the way even before I got up. German efficiency 😂
Actually they cleared yesterday, but I was worried about black ice / refreezing as it was still snowing
However, the salt they sprinkled, plus slightly milder weather, means the roads & most paths are clear

Yes, I also find 5:2 fits comfortably into the Christmas season
After parties and feasts, my tum rather welcomes an FD

re your question about sizes:
People who have boosted exercise and / or done fasting can find their shape changes, or they are "smaller" at the same weight.
This is because they have less fat, but more lean mass.

I hope you are feeling OK today, 43
However, if your tum is still acting up, have a healthy TLC day instead, with the same food - and alcohol - rules as an FD, just more food

I'm on day 2 of my b2b - it's vegan because I've been eating much more meat than usual with all the Christmas fare

cheddar You can have my ☃️

Books written even pre-WW2 need to be treated with caution 😭
You often find remarks that women have "lost their bloom" or have one foot in the grave after 30

No need to eat something after gym class unless hungry.
Personally, if hungry after FD vtraining, I would choose a protein minimeal rather than fruit on its own.

Welcome, cheerful 🙂
You are doing daily 16:8, or in your case, 18:6

For weight,Tanita scales seem very accurate and quite popular on these threads

For % bodyfat, lean mass etc, no private scales are that reliable - results can vary several % during the day
Brad Pilon (another fasting system) measured 22% fat on his scales, whereas scientific measurements showed 12% - he is a very lean, muscled, totally ripped guy.

So for body composition, you need a gym that has Boditrax
(or pay 250+ for a Bod Pod test at a lab)

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 13:21

43 Very well done on saving the choc bix for later
That was proactive and controlled, not sad !

I'd suggest people aged under about 60 aim for BMI 24, then see how they feel and - most importantly - if their waist / height is less than 0.5

You've done so well, that I think you could comfortably get in the 10 stone somethings
Some folk start 5:2 with very modest goals, then find they can get much further to their ideal than they thought

To help you decide, you can visualise how you would look at different weights.
These are links from the OP

3D BMII* body ripped to normal
Bod Viss* Measurements & 3D rotate

OP posts:
Kapoww · 17/12/2018 13:22

I have a Withings scale which I think is pretty good, smartphone compatible etc. But I agree about the body composition being a bit hit and miss and apparently that is also to do with when you weigh, hydration levels, how long after exercise and it always being like for like.

I’m on a FD today, so far so good!

BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 14:19

Yup, moisture / sweat on the feet is another factor, when you last ate / drank / time of your last poop, time of wee ...

For consistence you should meaure fat under the strict conditions I posted for weighing

However, a few years ago I tried this and then I kept measuring every few minutes:
my bodyfat varied by 6% within 20 minutes, even though I was naked, hadn't eaten, drunk, or been to the loo !

OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 17/12/2018 15:00

Thanks bcf I'll have a look at those links....

Tum is feeling much better today, I think I needed a fd. Just had someone else bring loads of chocolate to the office so I'm going to squirrel 1 lindt ball away.... this desk drawer is going to get full very quickly at this rate :-)

Oh no, all the snow gone.... love the German efficiency at clearing it all away though, they don't mess around! Xmas Grin

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 17/12/2018 15:26

hmmmm, those visualisations have shown me that I need to get doing some exercise as just being a healthy weight but 'fat' rather than 'ripped' is still not a good look!!! eek!!!

Fleabag123 · 17/12/2018 16:04

Those links are great (if slightly terrifying!!)

sundaymorningworries · 17/12/2018 16:33

Does anyone know if there is any link between IF and thyroid issues? I started IF in October and seem to have developed a thyroid issue - not sure of the nature of it yet, atm it's quite a large lump/swelling. Waiting on test results but in the meantime I wondered if anyone had any info. Tia.

Notreallyhappy · 17/12/2018 17:42

Hi all....you've all been busy since I last dropped in, hope you all well.
Rearranged FD for tomorrow & will do b2b life got in the way & didn't want to carry on by 12.15 ( baking for people ) but will still come in under tdee by quite a bit.
sunday not sure about the thyroid issue but IF suits me as a reduced calorie diet makes me more tired, even though my blood (tsh) are on a good number. I would think IF would help as it allows cells to rest & repair.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 17:43

Hi Sunday No, I haven't heard of this, or any other significant health issues.
I have researched extensively since 2013 into IF and peer-reviewed articles.

IF has been extensively studied and a vast number of people across the Western world have done it now, many for the health benefits.
(IF was going for several years before Varady and Mosely popularised it, btw)

I hope your test results help the specialist to deal with any issues asap.

OP posts:
sundaymorningworries · 17/12/2018 18:38

Thanks both 👍🏻

alltalknobaby · 17/12/2018 20:14

FD #3 for me today and the kitchen is closing on 612. I measured my waist and hips today and I've lost 2 inches and 1 inch respectively. I wasn't expecting such a dramatic difference so early on - is this normal? Obvs I am not expecting it to continue but it was a pleasant surprise that I don't actually believe

Borris · 17/12/2018 20:33

I'm slinking back in as I've had a terrible few days and a, really embarrassed

Work do Saturday night. Tried to save all my TDEE for the meal which backfired spectacularly as I was hideously drunk on shots- which is just so unlike me.

Spent Sunday throwing up most of the day. So whilst I prob was only on 500 calories it certainly wasn't nutritious and healthy - I ate 2 packets of hula hoops.

So today which was planned as FD1 I just wasn't up to it. Ended up having mini fish and chips at work for lunch which did settle my shakes.

Tomorrow night I'm out for another meal - driving so def only sparkling water. So will try to go light in the day.

Weds we've got a work meeting with pizza over dinner.

So I'm going to have to do a FD on Thursday which is my day off work so much harder. And then family start arriving fir Christmas on Friday.

Tell me I've not ruined everything!!!

And hope everyone else is going better than me. I'm off to catch up on the thread now

HLBug · 17/12/2018 20:58

FD finishing on about 530 so I'll absolutely take that, thank you very much. Super busy at work today which made things much easier.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 17/12/2018 21:25

Well done alltalk and bug I ended on 571 so a bit over but I was so hungry today.

Don't beat yourself up about it borris we've all been there, you've not ruined it, just try and be mindful woth your meal out and work pizza and nail your Thurs fd and you'll be back on track Smile

not 5:2 is so flexible that you can postpone fd for another day Smile

Bed now as tired and hungry...

Notreallyhappy · 17/12/2018 21:42

Well done 43 alltalk & bug...good fd.
Boris,,I think I had a similar illness to you this weekend minus the throwing up..Grin OH Christmas outing, the food was really poor so less calories to soak up the beer,,.shaky start to Sunday..(bcf drones missed me). Will try again tomorrow.

MazDazzle · 17/12/2018 21:57

Fasted today for the first time since October! 😳 Well done to everyone still slogging away and nailing those fast days. It’s great to feel in control of eating in the run up to Xmas and something I’m usually very good at! This year both myself and the kids have had so many bugs. I have a hot, clammy pukey toddler in bed with me no in fact.

Thankfully, despite having 2 months off, I’ve only gained 3 lb (some of that is the weight of my pjs as it’s too bloody cold to stand naked on the scales!) which is a miracle as I’ve been surviving on chocolate and cheese.

It feels great to be back into the swing of it though. Hoping for a healthy, controlled week in the run up to Christmas.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 22:15

Don't worry, Borris You stopped the binge and you are back on track now
Thursday is the only opportunity for an FD, so go nail it

You realise now that you have to be careful about alcohol on nights out

  • an important healthy 5:2 habit is NHS limits and stick to one glass.

notreally 🛰🛰

Well done on your inches NSV, alltalk

Yes, many people have a large initial loss of fat, which usually slows down after the first couple of weeks,
but those with several stone to lose may continue at 3-4 lb weekly for quite a long time

Well done on the FDs today, alltalk, bug, 43

Welcome back, Maz and that was excellent maintaining

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 17/12/2018 22:28

Excellent article: advice and explanations for any Sugar Addicts here from the Diabetes Council

< "addicts" = quite different to those of us who are occasionally greedy, but don't have a general problem with moderation >

Includes "boost protein" - which I've often advised to help sugar cravings.
Also that nuts often have more carbs than protein - as well as fat - hence some types aren't helpful.

"liquid B-complex" is a new tip to me though.

Tips and Strategies to Help You Quit Sugar

https://www.thediabetescouncil.com/handle-sugar-cravings-recover-sugar-addiction/

Eating a bit of the food we crave is mainstream cravings “wisdom.”
That can be terrible advice for sugar addicts, who are highly sensitive to priming.

OP posts:
MiniDoofa · 17/12/2018 23:16

Second FD yest, didn’t count calories as thought I had it under control. Don’t think that worked for me tho so, lesson learned will count everything from now on.
Looking for some lunch suggestions for FD. I eat lean protein and veg for dinner.... I don’t really like to cook at lunch but can’t face a salad every day. Yesterday I had a cucumber, some capsicum, two slices of ham, 20g of cheese and one tbsp of home made hummus. Seemed like probmore food than I should be having on FD! Thoughts and suggestions welcome!!

Alwayscheerful · 18/12/2018 03:53

Thanks for the link from the diabetes council. Interesting to read about the liquid vitamin B helping.

BigChocFrenzy · 18/12/2018 06:07

Mini That meal would be ok, depending on the size of any other meal(s)
Try to bulk up your meals with more veg, to feel fuller, rather than more than 1 kind of calorie dense food

  • maybe choose just one from your ham / cheese / hummus

FD Recipe ideas from the OP:
BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian , Foodie Under 200 Cals

Quick FD meals:

  • Tinned tuna (in brine not oil) with vinegar / sardines on a slice of 100% wholegrain / wholemeal / rye toast with slices of peppers, cucumber, tomato

  • Full-fat Greek yoghurt / cottage cheese, mixed with 1 tbsp of chia seeds / flaked almond, cinammon, a few berries,

  • Boiled / scrambled eggs with mushrooms, tomato or scrambled with smoked salmon or with spinach

  • Prawn stirfry with ready-chopped veg

OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 18/12/2018 07:29

welcome back maz I think you have done remarkably well only gaining 3lbs, a week of fasting and you'll be back on track.... hope you are all feeling better soon, its awful with little ones, there's no respite from the bugs!

mini I would definitely advise mfp-ing your FDs as the calories soon add up, I am quite set in my ways so i either have a chicken / turkey salad or some soup with sliced chicken. But you could have eggs, stir fries etc.

NFD today, no idea what I'm eating except dinner, salmon fillet, gratin potatoes (just a wee bit) and green beans with parmesan (my ds's favourite meal) mmmmmmmmmm

good luck any tues fasters Smile

Swipe left for the next trending thread