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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 82: Diet 2 days, eat "normally" on 5 days and retrain your "normal" to what your body burns

985 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 07/12/2018 23:37

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Mosely's TDEE Calc - Exercisers:Use 1 activity level below what you think
Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
Hockneypool · 15/12/2018 10:41

Reporting in after a bit gap and falling off the 5:2 wagon this autumn/winter.
I thought I had better not wait until January to start again. So started quietly two weeks ago with fasting and mindful eating. Not quite a fixed behaviour yet but it feels good.

Low key and healthy eating plans for the weekend alongside getting the house ready for Christmas.
Hope everyone has a good weekend

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 11:00

Welcome back, Hockney
Sounds like you are back in the fasting swing.

Always a good idea not to wait until after the Christmas / New Year period, when you would have probably put on a few lb more.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 11:10

I hope your cold goes soon, duck

Once below BMI 22 and 0.45 waist ratio, I recommend people choose a Happy Weight that is easy to maintain,
at least with 5:2
For those who are post-meno - no, I know you're too young ! - that can be higher, BMI 24 and 0.5

iirc you are at a pretty low BMI & waist / height - 19 and 0.35 ?
That's brilliant
However, if you find an occasional indulgent meal or day keeps adding several lb, it's often a sign that your Happy Weight is too low for your individual body

Have you ever had your bodyfat checked properly?
That would help you to decide if your goal is reasonable longterm, or whether you are dropping below the essential fat levels.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 11:18

I don't want to worry anyone who thinks BMI 22 is unrealistic for them

  • go for what suits your îndividual body, which may be 19 or may be 24

because we all have different frame sizes & musculature.

To clarify:
Once people get below the lowish BMI and waist I posted, it's best to aim for what they can easily maintain,
rather than fixing on numbers that are difficult to maintain longterm.

OP posts:
alltalknobaby · 15/12/2018 12:45

Is it normal to feel ravenously hungry the day after a FD? I could have eaten all day long yesterday after Thursday's FD. Even today I find I am unusually hungry and want to eat everything. I'm worried about eating back all the calories I skipped 🤔

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 13:19

Alltalk This can happen when you are getting used to fasting, but good food & drink choices help a lot:

Tips for the NFD after an FD

  • Break your fast with plenty of protein, plus some complex carbs
    e.g. poached / scrambled eggs on 100% wholegrain toast with tomato & mushrooms

  • NO snacking / grazing. Eat meals, nothing between

  • For your other meals, plenty of protein & different veg, plus sensible portions of carbs - up to 100g cooked weight or 2 slices bread.
    If you double carb, then halve the portion for each

  • Add beans, peas or lentils to lunch or dinner. They are filling because of high fibre and proven to help control blood sugar

  • Move to complex carbs, e.g wholegrain / wholemeal / rye bread, brown / red rice, quinoa, sweet potato
    Have potato baked / boiled, not mashed or deep-fried

  • Avoid fruit juice, dried fruit, breakfast cereals - the high sugar spikes insulin & hence hunger
    Have fruit for pud, but preferably unprocessed, e.g. berries, apple with skin instead of berry or apple compote

  • Cut back on sugary treats: cake, biscuits, choc, ice,
    or savoury junk food: crisps, deep-fried food, pizza, typical take-aways

  • Keep within NHS alcohol limits 3 units per day, which is 225ml wine. Alcohol is an appetiser

OP posts:
Fleabag123 · 15/12/2018 13:40

I think the scales are finally starting to shift!

Looks like 5.6lb down in 3 weeks. I’ll take that 😊
Waist definitely smaller too.

I’m glad I started pre-Xmas as could have been a lot worse. Trying to psych myself up to restart couch to 5k for the millionth time tomorrow

alltalknobaby · 15/12/2018 13:45

Really helpful bcf, thanks a lot

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 16:31

Well done on your SV and inches NSV, Fleabag
You've proved you were right to start 5:2 before the holidays.

If the gloomy, drizzly outdoors is putting you off, how about Shred ?
There are several other YouTube exercise routines if you'd like me to post, something for all tastes

OP posts:
Fleabag123 · 15/12/2018 17:37

Thank you BCF, open to other exercise options so please do post any links

BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 18:11

For Fleabag and anyone else who fancies an indoor routine: 🙂 🧘🏼‍♀️

VIDEOS

JM SHRED
https://www.ctxportal.com/video/17736/

JM Yoga Meltdown
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Qjo5saKcSyYY_

JM Circuit Abs
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AeRP9eT3Yoo_

JM 6 week 6-pack Abs
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VV0cRbxgkFAA_

JM Killer Bum & thighs
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jmDFer-LrVII_

2-min workout for Glutes
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh4PXfQiz4UU___

10 minute transformation
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IZFAGyP-oKUU_

Billy Blanks TaeBo Blast 8 mins
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LsFW5qHbNmAA_

Billy Blanks TaeBo cardio 40 mins
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jJLkzjeU5FUU_

Jeanette Jenkins 600 cals in 60 mins
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=s3F6R92s66_o

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 15/12/2018 18:48

Oops, that Shred link is old
I think this should work:

JM SHRED LEVEL 1

https://www.izlesene.com/embedplayer/7259997/?

OP posts:
HicDraconis · 15/12/2018 21:07

Wish I’d read your post before going overboard yesterday, BigChoc ... almost a kilo back on in a day! Also totm though so hoping it’s just water retention Firmly resolved to stay in check today and stick to TDEE - and unbelievably looking forward to my FD next week. Do they have to be the same days every week or does it not matter?

I’m often not at all hungry the day after a FD and I usually force myself to eat something, then the next day or so I can eat for England whether I’m hungry or not.

BigChocFrenzy · 16/12/2018 06:03

Don't worry, HIC It's probably mostly undigested food, plus retained water if you had a lot of carbs

  • excess carbs are stored as fat along with about 3 x the water weight, e.g. 250g carbs plus 750g water = 1 kg

Try to make today sensible and then a couple of dumps should get rid of some, with the next FD probably getting rid of any remainder.

NFDs are supposed to be "maintenance days" so, as in the thread title, they are when you may need to retrain your "normal" to what your body actually burns.

Many people who have been a fair bit overweight for years have got used to eating more than they burn, which is how the weight came on and stayed on.
So, most of us find that our old WOL needs to change, especially to avoid regain as soon as we stop.
This means changing longterm habits - you can guess from my user name what habit I had to cut right back ! 😂

btw, if you weigh daily, be aware that weight fluctuates naturally - whether dieting or not - by a lb or so even between different times of the same day, or from day to day.

So, to monitor progress accurately, it's best to weigh under consistent conditions:

. The morning after the 2nd FD of the week
. First thing in the morning, naked, after loo but before first drink of water.
. Reliable scales, referably digital.
. Change batteries frequently, so always full power.
. Scales should be on a dry, level hard surface, not carpet.
. Keep scales in exactly the same place every day. Type of flooring, slight slopes etc all affect things.
. After switching on, wait 3 secs before stepping on, because the scales need to calibrate.
. Don't jump on; step slowly on so that both feet are fully on
. Don't lean to one side or to the front /back.
. Keep still until you take the reading, no fidgeting or leaning

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 16/12/2018 06:17

Weight can vary week to week too, so more reliable to look at the tendency over 2-3 weeks, to check your rate of loss.

Graph plots of loss on 5:2 typically show a "sawtooth" shape, tending downwards
Weight drops after each FD, then there is a - small - regain the next NFD, as your stomach is no longer empty,
you lose more the next FD and so on

If your NFDs are sensible, then you may also lose a little on them, because cutting out all snacks between meals keeps you in fat-burning mode for longer.

The big 3 tips - even at weekends:

  • Cut out ALL snacks between meals
  • Keep within NHS alcohol limits - 3 units per day, 14 per week
  • Keep treats only as part of an NFD meal and in sensible amounts
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 16/12/2018 06:23

The hormonal changes during totm usually cause water retention, which can put on a few lb for some women.

So, stay focused on NFDs, avoid the totm munchies and then the FD after totm ends should release the water
You'd then see this on the scales, plus any continuing fat loss during totm

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 16/12/2018 07:22

Oh, just pulled the curtains back and there's SNOW outside ☃️
Looks a few inches.
Anyone else ?

I was going for a jog by the Rhine, but I'll put on more clothes and go for a trudge instead

b2b today and tomorrow (800 cals, on maintenance)
Any other fasters today ?

OP posts:
quackingduck222 · 16/12/2018 10:47

Hockney - It’s really great to see you back. Well done for getting back to it. How are you finding it?

I’m managing to fight off this cold, feel a bit rubbish in the morning but it soon disappears. I had this last year too but it never actually came to anything.
The gain was no doubt a couple of over indulged day’s. Possibly undigested carb laden food. Despite yesterday’s meal out I’ve lost 2lbs. This happens quite often and I find even without taking a FD I can loose the regain quite quickly. A good FD under my belt should see me right again.

AllTalk - Yeah that’s pretty normal, especially in the early days I think it takes a little while for the body to adjust.

Flea - Congratulations on your SV 5.6lbs is fantastic. It’s great that you started pre Xmas. Ive heard several people in RL I’ve heard say they will start in January as it’s Xmas now (back in November and very early December)

Hic - You can fast whenever you want it doesn’t have to be the same 2 days each week. We also have mini FDs 800-1000 if you ever fancy one.

BCF - My goodness you have snow, wow it only seems like a couple of weeks ago you were in your shorts and t-shirt. Take it steady out there.

BigChocFrenzy · 16/12/2018 11:32

Just back from my trudge
I walked - very carefully in my winter hiking boots - to the gym to do a spin class

duck Yup, I must pack those shorts away now !

I hope your cold doesn't hang around like last year
Boost fish, veg & beans to support your immune system

OP posts:
HLBug · 16/12/2018 21:11

~ stumbles in towards new thread...realises that it's already at 170+ posts... ~

Eek.

Evening all. Birthday and early Christmas celebrations have gotten the better of me recently and I haven't had a proper FD for about 10 days. Hoping to have at least a Mini tomorrow...but should really try for sub 500 as I weighed in at 1.5lbs over happy weight this morning. Some of that has to be hormones and bloat...but it's a slippery slope!!!

Fleabag123 · 17/12/2018 08:39

Good morning all! FD here and feeling positive.

Thinking about the “I’ll wait till after Xmas” diet mentality - I guess that’s the beauty of 5:2 as it doesn’t fully restrict eating and social activities at this busy time of year. Ive got lots on this weekend so either doing FD today and weds or a b2b today and tomorrow. Haven’t quite decided yet!

Good luck to everyone today, be careful in the snow @BCF!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 17/12/2018 10:03

morning everyone, was AWOL this weekend, a combination of not feeling great and just sheer busy / out and about all weekend.

Lots of lovely SVs to read, well done hic and flea,

Welcome billy and good luck with it and welcome back hockney

Quacking good to hear you have already got rid of some of that gain, btw you are tiny!!!!!

Ooh snow bcf how lovely Smile

Is that totm bloat bug it'll soon be gone

I had a dodgy tummy all weekend, combination of b2b FDs, totm appearing mid second B2B day, xmas dinner and drinks (but only 4!) on friday - just feel like I overloaded myself and paid for it all weekend :( FD today and weds this week as only days I don't have something on, hoping my belly behaves itself for work's meal out #2 on thursday!!

Anyone else fasting today??

TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 17/12/2018 10:39

I'm fasting today 43 - good luck! Hope your tummy behaves itself.

And good luck to you too, fleabag, and Bug!

V Envy of your snow, BCF! My old neighbour posted a video of snow on FB on Friday - I want some! We've only moved 5 miles down the road but our old house was up a hill and got the first snow every year.

A BMI of 22 is beyond my wildest dreams right now - definitely a stretch goal! That would be around 8 stone 7. I think I was last that weight aged 21. However, I'm 35 so not yet peri/menopausal so there's no actual reason why not. Goal 1 is 9 stone 10, BMI 24.9. I was reading Anne of Ingleside at the weekend, one of the Anne of Green Gables sequels, and stout Diana is described as having tipped the scales at 155 lbs that morning. That is exactly my weight. [sob]

Right, first fast day with a BodyPump class in it! I don't usually have lunch, and dinner is going to be spaghetti bolognese (small portion) because it's already made, but should I eat a banana or something after the class at lunchtime?

Fleabag123 · 17/12/2018 10:59

I think I could only dream of a BMI of 22!

I lost a lot of weight about 5 years ago, and to my disappointment I’m now almost back to my heaviest Shock. But - I’m carrying it so differently this time, and can still just about fit into size 14s whereas last time I was 16/18. Is this common?

Either way it all has to go!

harriethoyle · 17/12/2018 11:18

I'm fasting too @fortythree and @tooextra. Last FD before Christmas although I am going to persevere with IF I think, skipping breakfast always limits the damage for me...