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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 82: Diet 2 days, eat "normally" on 5 days and retrain your "normal" to what your body burns

985 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 07/12/2018 23:37

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Mosely's TDEE Calc - Exercisers:Use 1 activity level below what you think
Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
Cheeeeislifenow · 15/01/2019 18:43

@scarlet
Ah don't beat yourself up.

I'm new to this but what some others do if they mess up, I think is have another mini FD? Subtract 1000 calories from your TDEE another day?
I

harriethoyle · 15/01/2019 19:10

@alltalk I need to eat lunch and dinner - skipping breakfast is fine but I really struggle with missing lunch.

Coming in at 510 today after home made lentil soup for lunch and a weightwatchers meal for tea Halo

harriethoyle · 15/01/2019 19:14

@fortythree i read that as salad and a huge glass of wine Wine Wink

TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 15/01/2019 19:19

On 549 (including last cup of tea). Dinner was sea bream, broccoli, olives and tomatoes.

Well done, harriet!

Don’t worry about 700-odd, Scarlet! That’s still very low by any standards.

greenelephantscarf · 15/01/2019 19:27

kitchen closed at about 500
feeling full from a massive pile of cucumber and carrots with balsamic, a fried egg and one slice of wholemeal bread.

alltalknobaby · 15/01/2019 19:36

Kitchen closing on about 624 today. Phew.

OohMrDarcy · 15/01/2019 19:52

Been distracted this evening by the credit vote!

FD complete and kitchen closed at 5.30... still glugging the water!

I'm not around tomorrow due to work trip but have my lunch planned (approx 500 cals) and my delicious dinner in my head... how I just need to stick to it..Hmm

PopGoesTheWeaz · 15/01/2019 19:55

day2 B2B, kitchen closing at 585.

Got home and started eating as I cleaned up after the kids and realised that if I waited for DH for dinner I'd snack my way past my limit so I've taken the plunge and eaten early.

Off to brush my teeth so I'm not tempted by anything else.

harriethoyle · 15/01/2019 20:04

Good plan @pop - early eating definitely the way forward on a fast day.

Excellent FDs everyone!!

Am considering what to do tomorrow - might take the second portion of soup to work tomorrow and treat it as a b2b with a 790 calorie limit...

BigChocFrenzy · 15/01/2019 20:07

Not long to go, fasters !

Don't worry, Scarlet That's OK as an FD; most of us had a few hiccups when we were getting used to fasting.

The 800 cal FDs are only if you are on daily low carb
and / or have a high TDEE, about 2400+

You must have a lot more time, space & quiet too, TiP !

Right, alltalk I'll work in health bennies to the title

The main benefits of fasting
are that it switches on the process of autophagy, in which old parts of cells sub-cellular are destroyed and new ones are rebuilt to replace it.
Fasting boosts Human Growth Hormone, which accelerates the creation of these new cells

Some specialists in kidney disease, T2, high BP etc now use fasting as an integral process of treating their patients
Fasting has also been shown to help asthma, PCOS, IBS and some skin ailments
Researchers into healthy aging believe fasting can also reduce the risk of chronic diseases like dementia and Parkinsons

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 15/01/2019 20:13

Cheee re an FD not going to plan: (we never "fail" on 5:2 😉)

  • If it's 800 or under, count it as an FD - it doesn't matter if it's occasional

  • If it's 800-1000, count it as a mini and try to add another mini that week

  • don't worry if you can't fit it in. As TiP says, it's what you do ovr the long term that matters, not one particular day.
  • If its over 1000, keep within TDEE and postpone the FD to another day, say tomorrow. Again, don't stress if this isn't possible.
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 15/01/2019 20:19

The main thing on an FD or NFD is never to say "sod it, I screwed up and may as well eat the fridge":

Just stop eating as soon as you realise, drink a big glass of water and clean your teeth
Have a good night's sleep
Then move on, as tomorrow is a fresh new day.

Well done on your FDs, *scarlet, harrie, cheddar, green. alltalk, MrD, pop
*
Good thinking there, pop
No snacking EVER, FD or NFD

OP posts:
Cheeeeislifenow · 15/01/2019 20:52

Thanks @BCF

Good to know.

I am on 370 for the day..

For dinner I had Iceberg lettuce, three cherry tomatoes, cucumber, grated carrot, some tuna, sweet corn and an egg!

I have had some massive sugar cravings today, which have not been easy. The goddamn sweets are still there and I haven't touched them.

I have been invited for a chinese on Friday. Obviously this I. Not fitting into my new regime, but I also can't be rude and not go.
Any advice on what I could eat that won't mess up the rest of the week for me?

greenelephantscarf · 15/01/2019 21:00

chinese as in takeaway or sit down?
if proper restaurant it's a good one for piling on veg.
maybe plan a fd the day after

Ta1kinPeace · 15/01/2019 21:04

Chinese ....
If you were picking the food I'd always say go for a set menu as it will have lower calories
BUT
in a big meal
anything sweet and sour
crispy duck - load up with onions and cucumber
all other dishes have more lumps of veg than meat
load up on the tofu
only enough rice / noodles to soak up the sauce
AND
eat with chopsticks as it will slow you down

tinysnickersaremyfavourite · 15/01/2019 21:05

Are people here doing the daily fast 800 kick start thing? Or is this thread only for 5:2 stage?
I'm a few days into the fast 800 and could do with some support and probably the odd kick up the backside.

Cheeeeislifenow · 15/01/2019 21:09

No it's a takeaway

Think I'll skip the rice and noodles.
I might make a salad to go with it.
I might have a mini FD on Sunday as well.

OohMrDarcy · 15/01/2019 21:15

Finally measured my water bottle. It's 800ml, so if I finish the bottle I'm on that a 3.2litres of just water plus 2 cups of tea today... happy with that.

Well done to all today's fasters!

BigChocFrenzy · 15/01/2019 21:25

Cheee If it's planned as an FD, move the FD, because you won't be able to relay & enjoy that meal with your chums

So make that an NFD; then Chinese takeaway can fit in, with sensible choices:

Have preferably none, or a v small breakfast, e.g. boiled egg
and a small lunch, e.g. chicken strips with green salad, lemon dressing

then I suggest for the takeaway:
Stir-fry, Szechuan prawns, steamed veg, boiled rice

Avoid:
egg-fried rice, sweet & sour, prawn crackers, anything battered or "crispy" (= deepfried)

OP posts:
greenelephantscarf · 15/01/2019 21:27

tiny
all sorts of different ways of 5:2 on here.
fast800 would fit nicely with us I think Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 15/01/2019 21:27

Probably your friends would like to share a nice salad, cheee
Keep to NHS alcohol limits too, drink lots of water and you'll be fine

Great progress with the water, MrD
That always worked well for you in the past

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 15/01/2019 21:40

Welcome, tiny 🙂
We're a friendly bunch, so all are welcome
Post anytime, to tell us how you are doing

I've got the fast800 Kindle - I've all Mosely's fasting books, plus books by several fasting specialist
Fast800 is basically a version of his BSD, which I and most older hands here know quite well.

How are you doing so far ?
Any problems / questions ?

Do you understand the Fast800 kickstart stage ?
Its basically a 2 week Bootcamp - or whatever time period you choose - on 800 daily cals of Mediteranena low carb

Mosely recommends you have peas / beans / lentils most days, to help stabilise blood sugar
Also full fat Greek yoghurt
Protein of course - fish, eggs are especially good
Moderate amounts of nuts, seeds
No starchy carbs, but plenty of different veg
No junk, especially sugary crap, whatsoever
and no alcohol

OP posts:
Cheeeeislifenow · 15/01/2019 22:52

Thanks for the help guys, yeah it's a NFD on Friday!
Well done FD'ers today and good luck to everyone tomorrow!

Cheeeeislifenow · 15/01/2019 22:53

Hi @tiny
I only started last week too, I am a newbie. I am doing 5:2

GrannyPenny · 15/01/2019 23:01

FD came in at 650 cals despite OH's attempts at sabotage by chips. I am still annoyed so least said the better.

Sourdough starter tucked up in the airing cupboard hopefully doing it's thing. Snail thinking way ahead, pot-wise what do you cook your sourdough in? Watched a youtube today and they mentioned a dutch oven or cast iron pot, neither of which I have. Closest thing is probably a cake tin which I can line - would that be okay?

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