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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 82: Diet 2 days, eat "normally" on 5 days and retrain your "normal" to what your body burns

985 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 07/12/2018 23:37

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Mosely's TDEE Calc - Exercisers:Use 1 activity level below what you think
Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
GrannyPenny · 14/01/2019 21:49

Welcome back Blossom - so sorry for your loss. I found targeted sports massage very beneficial for my various running related muscle problems, but I'm guessing you've tried that already?

Some excellent FDs going on and you've all made me realise it's time I joined back in, so going to do a mini FD tomorrow max 800 cals.

BigChoc - can you remind me what constitutes a portion of veg/fruit? Is it 80g uncooked, and are all 80g counted as equal - for example, 80g beans vs 80g mushrooms. I used to eat a lot of fruit, but I've cut right back to only one portion a day as I find this helps minimise sugar cravings so need to up the veg.

SmiledWithTheRisingSun · 14/01/2019 22:34

Evening all
I'm back on the 5:2 - hoping to stay here this time!
Feeling quite crappy today despite fasting.
Put on 1/2 a stone over crimbo
Got rid of 3 lbs since then.
Now this week I have terrible heart burn/ reflux. It feels hideous. Haven't had it since I was pregnant years ago.
Am going to lay off the coffee tomorrow I think. It's the only thing I've eaten that I think could have caused it today.
FD1 coming in at 550 so that's a good thing.
Hope you've all had a good one.

PopGoesTheWeaz · 14/01/2019 23:01

kitchen closing at 520 for d1 of b2b

Summer15coming · 14/01/2019 23:26

Hi everyone! I haven't been on here for quite a while!

Since I was last here, I have lost another half a stone, inspired by, but not religiously doing, 5:2 or 16:8. I'm well into my healthy BMI range, but would like to lose another half a stone or thereabouts.

As I find it fairly easy to skip breakfast and eat within a smaller time-frame, I'm going to carry on doing this. One question though, is around herbal tea and whether this counts as breaking the fast. Lots of experts seem to say it's fine, but Dr Rhonda Patrick says no. I'm confused!

BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2019 23:27

Well done, borris, blossom, bug, snail, pumper, smiled, pop

That's good progress if you can now have treats in moderation, Calzone

Well done on your SV, smiled

Coffee on an empty, fasted gut may be causing problems, so it's a good idea to try cutting it out.

Other irritants for your tum:
Fruit juice - very acidic. Cut out - it's v high sugar too.
Very spicy food
Alcohol - try a dry week
Smoking if you do this - just stop, for all the other reasons you know already.

Yes, seriously blossom No exercise for 5 days after chiro, except for gentle walks - not even swimming.
Otherwise, my awesomely efficient German chiro warned me, you can undo many of the treatment's benefits
Your ligaments etc need that time to settle in their corrected positions, or they'll move back again

Good luck tomorrow, granny

Yes, max. 1 portion fruit is advised when you are so sensitive to sugar
and Mosely says also avoid high-sugar tropical fruit like pineapple or mango
Obviously avoid dried fruit or fruit juice - some veg juice is ok

Build up to 7 portions of veg if you can, v good for health & cravings
Mosely in the BSD recommends lentils, peas or peas most days as these are proven to help regulate blood sugar.

Portions must be of different fruit & veg
e.g. 1 kg broccoli is stil 1 portion !

On average, a portion of fruit or veg is about 80g.

What that typically means:
• 3 heaped tablespoons of vegetables, beans or pulses
• 1 dessert bowl of salad
• 1⁄2 a grapefruit or avocado
• 1 apple, banana, pear, orange or other similar sized fruit
• 2 plums, satsumas, kiwi fruit or other similar sized fruit
• 1 large slice of melon
• 1 cupful of cherries or berries

Ignore the dried fruit, juice, smoothies etc, but veg examples are useful here:

https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/5-a-day-portion-sizes/

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2019 23:32

Well done on your SV, summer and healthy BMI milestone
Great progress, whatever fasting system works for you and is healthy.

Herbal tea does NOT break a fast, provided it is without milk of any kind and without sugar or artificial sweeteners
Mosely and the top fasting researchers agree on this

You could also have ordinary tea or coffee / espresso without milk or sweetener, if you are OK with caffeine on an empty tum

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2019 23:38

everyone else. Don't worry about tea, coffee etc on FDs, so long as you count the calories

My answer was just for anyone doing a strict fasting window in 16:8
You can also be less strict on 16:8 and allow up to 40 cals in a 16-hour fast for it still to count as a fast.

OP posts:
RosaPalma · 15/01/2019 07:32

I have been busy so not had the chance to check in over the past few days. I weighed myself yesterday morning and am down 500gr. I was hoping for a bit more but will take it.

I invested in a new Fitbit and was delighted that I exceeded my target activity for the week by about 30,000 steps. I used to also do Gillian Michael's 30 day shred (beginner because I have back problems) but stopped a year ago because of a rotar cuff impingement. I had a physio appointment yesterday and she has given me some modified exercises I can incorporate into the shred so I am going to give that a go today and see how I get on.

I has my first FD of the week yesterday and the kitchen closed on 580. Today is NFD and I have just had a coffee but aiming to hold out until after 11 for my porridge. Lunch will be a bacon sandwich and dinner is a butter beans and cauliflower stew with lots of veggies and salad to bulk up.

snailhunter thank you so much for the HFW link to the sourdough recipe. There is also a River Cottage GF book and they have the same recipe with a rice flour starter. I will definitely give it a go. I found a sourdough gluten free pizza in M&S on Saturday and it was delicious - totally worth every single calorie. It would be nice though to be able to make my own so that can be an added bonus of having my own sourdough starter Smile.

Cheeeeislifenow · 15/01/2019 07:37

FD 1 here. I am feeling hungry so trying to fill up with water as much as I can.
May need support today, but at least I have a busy day!

scruffybarnsley · 15/01/2019 07:51

Hi all,

I've lurked on these threads since almost the very beginning. Lost about 2 stone in 2013 and kept it off for a good few years until major changes in personal life (divorced, came out, now in v happy same sex relationship). Also in that time changed jobs 4 times and moved house twice...When I put it like that I'm not surprised I put weight back on!!!!

But enough is enough and I return here with tail between legs as I am a massive fasting advocate and know exactly what I need to do - I just need to do it! Consistently and without excuses.

I've been back in the game properly since the start of last week. I'm not going to weigh obsessively as I know from last time that the number can be all over the place - as long as it's generally downwards, I don't care!

Lovely to see names that I recognise from old and well done to everyone starting for the first time. I wouldn't underestimate the massive change it made in my life - from my self confidence to the way I understood my own eating habits for the first time. Thanks to BCF (and everyone else!) as always for being amazing and so helpful.

GroovieGazelloo · 15/01/2019 08:24

Morning everyone,
Well done to those on FDs yesterday and good luck to those doing it today. I'm on my 2nd of the week - doing B2B.
Feeling a bit fed up that I've not lost anything since last week despite being very careful -even at the weekend. I'm trying to pep talk myself day in, day out. It would still be nice for the scales to reflect back my hard work though.
It was good to read you Scruffy. Especially when you said about how results can be irregular. Thanks for that and welcome back.

greenelephantscarf · 15/01/2019 08:30

fasting today.
yesterday's weigh in was a bit fissapointing - still not at pre christmas weight.
will have another look at my portion sizes.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 15/01/2019 08:50

morning everyone, lots of fab monday FDs achieved yesterday - well done to everyone Smile

Well done calzone on your SV and I agree, mushy peas are delicious!

quacking it does sound like they'd labelled the jeans wrong.... take them back

Welcome back Iam and sorry to hear about your loss, be kind to yourself, grief is exhausting Sad

Welcome africat and good luck

How was your FD mystified did you manage okay

Welcome back smiled i used to get heartburn a lot but rarely these days, if I do I just take a nexium tablet, they are very expensive but bloody brilliant and work on me in about 20mins!

Wow summer good luck with the next half a stone

Good luck cheee and well done rosa
Welcome back scruffy

groovie good luck on the scales

NFD today, skinny vanilla latte, then lunch is subway salad and yogurt, dinner is fishcakes and huge salad and maybe a glass of Wine will what TDEE comes in at

Hope everyone has a good day

SmiledWithTheRisingSun · 15/01/2019 09:02

Hi 43 thanks for the tip will try them.
I have been googling the various readings for heartburn and am of course now worried about sinister causes! Cautiously drinking a herbal tea now.

quackingduck222 · 15/01/2019 09:10

Well done calzone.

BCF - I stupidly took the tags off but they fit DD, there smaller than her 10-11 years but they actually fit her better than the kids range as she’s got got tiny frame but long legs.

Well done Hic, sounds like your doing great and working out what works for you.

Snail - I hope your FD went well.

LifeNow - Good luck for your FD today.

JcHcks - Sorry to hear you were sick.

Blossom it’s good to see you back just a shame it’s under these circumstances. Sorry to here about your family member. It’s good that your back so early on, that gain should go super quick.

Pop- That’s a really good idea, If you don’t think the total you can always have a re gig around and make the total work for you.

Groovie - you will be acquainted with your toilet, maybe save time and just live on there 😂

Afrikat- Welcome yo the thread.

Bug - Hope you FD went well.

Pumper - Well done on your FD, that’s the worst part of the day for me too,

Harriet - Well done on your unexpected mini, fair play to you for also fasting today.

Brighton - Well done on your FD

Mickey - Good luck for your FD today, I do the same and fill up on water and coffee and save all the cals for my evening meal.

Well done Borris and snail aswell, busy day yesterday with everyone fasting.

Smiled - Good to see you back. I’ve been reading up on acid reflux and fasting as I went through a bad spell of it before Xmas. Apparently it can be brought on by fasting it’s actually one of the only side effects. Mine did go away as quickly as it came on, it was rather strange.

Summer - I would say no it wouldn’t break the fast if your not adding milk.

Rosa - Well done on your loss, remember a loss is still a loss. Sometimes it’s better to look over the month to see what you’ve lost. It all adds up in the long run.

LifeNow - Good luck for your fast today it should fly by if your busy.

Iamblossom · 15/01/2019 09:15

3 pounds off. Hurray. May attempt a mini tomorrow. Feel back in the game and posting here deffo helps thanks all.

sandgrown · 15/01/2019 09:19

I have tried and failed with SW etc but I think I could manage this. I will read all the info to psych myself up for starting !

OohMrDarcy · 15/01/2019 09:32

Morning all, checking in for my Tuesday FD... water is on the go - a bottle down so far and just plotting my meals for the day too.

Blossom - well done on those 3lb, very much back in the game!

Calzone - hope you enjoyed your cake and fruit.

Lots of fabulous FDs yesterday - borris , HLBug , snail , pumper, pop, rosa

Good luck to those fasting today - cheese, granny , groovie, green and me!

welcome back smiled and scruffy!

Congrats on the SVs Rosa and summer (including the healthy BMI!)

Apologies if I've missed you - there was lots to catch up on!

snailhunter · 15/01/2019 10:18

Glad to hear you're interested in making your own sourdough, Rosa! I am a bit evangelical about it because it is soooooo nice and of course very healthy as it contains nothing but flour, oil, water and a bit of salt - no sugar, no butter, nothing else! It also keeps really well and is just as delicious (if not more) when it's a bit stale, so we never waste any. I had lovely sourdough toast this morning which is my go-to breakfast after an FD.

alltalknobaby · 15/01/2019 11:21

Checking in for FD 👋🏻

Tea and water so far, feeling very hungry so off to make another hot drink and refill my water glass.

Well done everyone with all the Monday FDs and good luck to other fasters today - we can do this 💪🏻

TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 15/01/2019 11:36

Morning all! Good luck today's fasters! I am fasting today too. I have whole sea bream in the fridge for dinner, mmm.

Snail, that sourdough sounds amazing! Do you make it in a breadmaker? I have a v small kitchen and although I do have a breadmaker (bought in old house with bigger kitchen) I don't have space to keep it out just now.

littlemoon86 · 15/01/2019 11:51

Hi everyone joining in with 5:2. I did it a few years ago and it worked really well for me. I’d like to lose around 15lbs.
Fast day for me today. I have a small lunch of salad, tuna and some butter beans then I’ll have a small ready meal later.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/01/2019 12:04

Congrats on the SV, Blossom
She's back !

Welcome, Sand 🙂
Lots of info in the OP under "How to start", useful liks etc
but do post whenever you need advice or support - we're a very friendly group

Welcome back, Barnsley
You'll soon be back in the fasting swing

Well done on your SV, rosa
If you have a low TDEE, < 1500, that is about what to expect
If your TDEE is higher, you can look at your NFDs, to check you aren't eating back too much of the FD deficit

Welcome back, littlemoon
and good luck on your 1st FD back - your menu sounds good

Good luck, Tuesday fasters ! 🙂

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 15/01/2019 12:49

As we come towards 800 posts, have a think ... 🧠

Anyone got any suggestions they'd like as the theme of the next thread title ?

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 15/01/2019 12:49

Don't worry, I'll write it all, but let me know what is important to you / what amuses you

OP posts: