5:2 Thread number 82: Diet 2 days, eat "normally" on 5 days and retrain your "normal" to what your body burns

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Mosely's TDEE Calc - Exercisers:Use 1 activity level below what you think
Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Weigh Day Week 1

I was 13.1 stone last week.

Today I am 12.9 stone 🎉🎊🎈🎉🎊🎈

Very pleased with that.

Today food will be

B.....French toast (SW style)
L...chicken salad
D.....leek and potato soup

No snacking
Water

43 - My result wasn’t too bad I think I just expected a bit more. Especially as I’ve not done a B2B in a year.

MrDarcy - Well done on a F

Snail- Well done on both your SV, and also with the MFP and the healthy habits becoming the new WOL. You sound like your in a great place.

GrannyPenny - It’s great to see you back, I would say it’s completely normal. I used to get those thoughts all the time and it basically consumed my life until I got into the swing of things.

Scarlet - Well done on your FD. Are you drinking enough?

Oh BCF that sounds exactly like something I would do.

Darcy- I get you on the disappointed point but it’s good to look at the overall picture and 8.4lbs is absolutely brilliant, as you said onwards and downwards.

Ginger - Welcome to the thread, for me my FD always contain eggs of some sort, loads of cherry tomatoes to fill the plate, mushrooms and either ham, eggs or 25g cheese. I don’t venture far from that list as I find it works for me and is really filling.

Granny- Congratulations on your SV, sounds like you had a very hard but great week.

Harriet- Welcome back, sounds like you had a amazing Xmas. I find the regain comes off pretty quick if I get back to it ASAP.

Calzone - That’s a fantastic SV, Congratulations. I was just wondering, your combining 5:2 with SW, are you also going to the classes?

My aim was to get into my skinnies by Saturday. I had a brand new identical pair that I could not for the life of me get over my thighs. I know when there new they are a bit tight but it was silly so I compared them to my others and they are tiny upto my others but with the same tags so I can only assume they are marked wrong as I ended up wearing my others with no issues.

Back on it today, me and the scales are no longer friends so I’m signing up for a good week.

Good luck to everyone fasting today

Hi quacking

I’ve been to Sw classes before and just can’t bear it. The number on the scale at that moment in time being written down.

I’m doing SW with 2 days fasting.
No snacking
More water
Trying to be mindful of what I do eat.

One day at a time.

Good luck, Monday fasters 🙂
I'm fasting too.

Congrats on your SVs, cheee, Calzone
Excellent start for you both
Welcome to the 12 stone something, Calzone

Don't worry about the new skinnies, duck
Sounds either a dud label, or they've changed their sizes.
Can you change them ?

Groovie To stay fuller on NFDs, boost protein and aim for 7 portions veg, including 1 portion peas / beans / lentils.
Also drink masses of water - fizzy drinks even diet ones can increase hunger during the day

Are you snacking between meals, or late at night ?
Stop snacking - it makes you consume more overall
Increase meal size by boosting protein / veg / beans, but not increasing starchy carbs

Are you eating too many carbs, especially sugary ones ?
Excess will spike hunger and switch your body to fat storage instead of burning fat for fuel
Also, alcohol is an appetiser, as well as a calorie bomb

JC You too will find it much easier if you cut right back on the sugary junk - it makes you hungrier and slows down fat-burning too.
As I posted earlier, all calories are NOT the same, in the way your body reacts to them.

Eat 3-4 proper meals per day on NFDs, with protein, masses of different veg & sensible amounts of starchy carbs

no snacking between meals

Well, started the week well - NFD for me and I finished up at 1700 calories (TDEE is 1800 so happy with that).
30 min run, 30 min bike ride, 2h karate and I’m sore but happy.

I find I eat better on NFD if I skip breakfast and have a protein/veg wrap around midday, then an evening meal. Will admit to adding a cider to the evening meal but kept it to one! Have been on water or soda water mainly.

Not fasting tomorrow as another heavy exercise day, good luck to Tuesday fasters! I’ll be fasting Weds and Fri this week. There, have said it so will have to stick to it :)

Morning Monday fasters! FD for me today. Working out all day so no distractions.

Morning all NFD here for me.

Congrats on all the lovely SVs - Mickey, Cheese and Calzone!

43 - shame about moving your FD - hope I still have a buddy tomorrow somewhere!

@ooohMrDarcy tomorrow is my FD!

Morning Fasters. Good luck to you all.
FD for me too today.

Thanks for the suggestions about NFDs BCF. I'm having a think through.

One thing that's becoming a problem for me is the " build up in roughage" if you get me. I'm stuck at a weight despite watching what I eat and all. And I believe it's because I'm carrying a lot of un eliminated stuff around. I'm a bit bothered that my FD is not going to make this better....

Any suggestions?

Good Luck everyone! It's my FD today and its only 10.20am and I'm sooo hungry. I hate feeling so hungry cause I always feel really sick too :( I've just made a cup of tea in the hope that helps

Annnnnd I've just been sick :( I had a big meal last night at 8pm so not sure why I'm so hungry this morning!

Well done on your SV, Mickey

That's a really good start to the week, HIC
and a huge amount of exercise

Yes, many of us find fasted morning training works very well
You burn extra bodyfat for fuel then

To help mobilise bodyfat for fuel, glug down an unsweetened black double espresso about 10 mins before training
Every bit helps

JC Glug down a teasp Marmite (10 cals) - even if you don't like it, regard it as medicine
Hot beef Bovril (also 10 cals) works well too.

Tip:
Avoid junk on the NFD before an FD, because otherwise you'll probably wake up with unstable blood sugar and be extra hungry on the FD.
Similarly if you drink too much alcohol the day before - keep to NHS limits

Groovie Didn't you eat much veg before 5:2 ?
If so, you might need to build up veg more gradually

However, if you eat a lot of starchy carbs - bread / rice / potato / pasta / cereal - cut right down on these first, rather than veg

The FD has lower food volume than an NFD, even with plenty of veg
So it should help your tum empty.

AIm to drink at least 1.5 litres still water daily, FDs or NFDs, in addition to any other drinks, especially with a tendency to constipation.
Avoid fizzy drinks - they can make things worse.

Also, are you taking any fibre supplements ? Or eating bran / chia seeds ?
because these also can block you up even more !
Cut them out and just keep drinking water

For the NFD, I have a good unblocker recipe with lemon juice and olive oil - if you want to try that tomorrow, check for these in your store cupboards.

fab news Cheese - we can support each other

JC hope you are feeling better soon!

And Groovie - hope your tum sorts itsself soon, keep drinking the water which should help.

Goooooooooooood Mooooooooooooorning fasters!

Hopping back in here so you can all support me on my first fast day in many months.

Was maintaining quite comfortably at 8.11/8.12 for ages, first on one 800ish FD a week, and then just cal counting and a shit ton of exercise.

Then Christmas happened, a loved one died, then their funeral, and wine wine wine wine. And out of control snacking.

I never fully lost control, as I try and keep to 1800 or less a day and more at weekends, but clearly I have started to slide the wrong way, as was 9 stone this morning. Back is bad so unable to run although still swimming, Would ideally like to be 8.10.

So fasting today to reset.

So far have swum 60 lengths of front crawl - 2 black teas and a black coffee - one boiled egg. Walking dogs at 12 for an hour.

Rest of day will be another boiled egg and a 0% greek yoghurt about 2, and a 2 egg prawn omelette with salad for tea with an Options hot choc for something sweet before bed. And as much water as I can remember to drink.

Going well so far.

Good luck today all those fasting and hi to everyone.

A half way through first week of MFPing in probably 6 months and I'd forgotten what a pain it is. I'm being brutal and rounding up and weekends really are setting me back so I'll need to look at that. After a week of entering everything after, I'm going to try entering things before I eat to see if that helps me make better decisions (and hopefully leads to better results).

Oh no JC. Hope you are feeling better soon. Take it easy, plenty of water / tea?

Welcome ginge. Just looked up my notes and I lost 2 stone in 25 weeks but most of that was in the first 15. I tend to lose 1-2 lbs a week but that has slowed dramatically now. I'm reassessing my NFD routines as I've been eating back too many calories on the weekends, so that may help but I'm also at a happy weight now (back at a healthy BMI and past initial goals) so not pushing myself too hard. I would like to lose a bit more of my tummy wobble though so not moving to maintenance just yet.

I tend to save all calories for the evening and find that I can eat pretty normal meals if I low carb it or alternatively go vegan (and measure out carbs). This week I'll have roast garlicy mushrooms with polenta one night and a vegan ragu with lots of veggies and red lentils with spagetti/courgetti mix.

Oh blossom, so sorry to hear about your loss. That's not much of a gain considering, and it's so easy to jump back in to this WOE, I'm sure you'll be back at your goal weight in no time. x

Hope you’re feeling better now JcHcks.

Thanks for your support BCF and . Glad you’re not alone tomorrow on your FD OoohMrDarcy. I’m debating on whether to do another B2B and could be joining you on the FD too. Just need to get my innards comfy. 😊

Sorry to hear of your loss Lamb .Sounds as though it’s been a difficult time and that you’ve weathered the storm quite well all considered. Great to know you can come and join back in when you need to. 🤗

Get what you’re saying about MFPing and also about weekends Pop. I had a hard time yesterday and was really pleased that I didn’t go mad snacking. There’s something about the weekend that gives me a sense of entitlement around food. I’m glad that yesterday I didn’t get back on that vicious wheel. 😅 Having said that , after reading BCF‘s advice, I think I needed to eat more protein at midday. I’ll beat that in mind next Sunday.

I really appreciate your help BCF .
I’ve had a think about what you said and although I usually do eat a lot of vegetables, before starting 5:2 this time, we were eating up our uneaten Christmas fridge. There was a lot of cheese and snacky stuff. So, yes, I must have started with a vegetable deficit. ☺️ At least I understand what’s going on. I’m upping the water today. ( probably spend most of the day in the loo methinks! 😂)
And, when you’re ready with the lemon and olive oil cocktail, sock it to me ! 😄

Thanks for your support BCF and OoohMrDarcy*.

Are you getting the impression of being deprived from what your DH eats, or taller & slim women friends ?

Erm, yes. I know I need to deal with that feeling and get over it. With the distance of 24 hours, I think part of the rage feeling on Saturday was the kids behaving like pigs and DH going off for a nap because he's adjusting to new anti-depressants that are supposed to make him sleep better at night, but made him drowsy all day instead. I was deflecting it onto food.

New week, new stab at this! I have been religiously tracking food since Tuesday, so I now have nearly a full week of data on MFP for the first time ever. I used to just stop tracking on bad days, so the previous data is pants. I have just calculated that my daily average for the last 6 days has been 1484 calories, and if I eat my full TDEE allowance today my average will be 1524. The NHS calculator says I need to eat between 1325 and 1410 to lose 2lbs a week, but MFP would give me 1200 a day. If I go with the NHS advice then I'm nearly there and a bit more trimming would see me hitting the right calorie average, but if I look at MFP I'm a long way off and need to radically cut down.

Good luck today's fasters!

Jc, sorry to hear you've been sick - that's a bit unusual, are you sure you ought to be fasting? Maybe you're coming down with a bug. Hope you feel better soon!

Thanks bigchoc I think that's where I went massively wrong as I ate a lot of sugar and junk yesterday. I didn't struggle like this last week. Still feeling hungry now so will have a small snack at lunch. I absolutely hate marmite lol but I will give it a go when I get some.
Thanks everyone. I'm feeling much better just still hungry. I think a small lunch and a small dinner is the way for me to go

Hello! Please may I join you all? I'm currently doing Fast 800 (started yesterday) and planning on moving to 5:2 on the 26th, with 14:10 to start with. I also eat a Paleo diet, so no dairy/legumes/grains and have lost 16lbs in the last 4 months eating that way. Got another 20lbs to lose in an ideal world...

welcome afrikat - I'm sure you'll do well with 5:2.... and this is a great thread for support!

Welcome back to the fold blossom - I remember you from... well all my attempts! I'm back for 2019 too. Sorry for your loss

Could be a little crowd of us tomorrow then Groovie

Glad you are feeling better JC

Glad to hear you've got your head around saturdays rage Cheddar - heres to a more peaceful week

FD for me today. Should come in at about 700 cals. I weighed in at 9st 1.5lb today but a bit of that will be TOTM as I was 8st 13lb last week and although I've not been completely on track I certainly haven't been that bad.

blossom nice to see you back - and sorry to hear about your tough times. I'm also higher than I should be and desperate to get back to "our" 8st 10lb happy weight. I'm gonna MFP religiously for the next few weeks. It's bloody January - literally EVERYONE cuts back in January - so I'm sure by the end of the month 8st 10lb will be achievable

Sorry to hear of your loss, Blossom 💐
Once you get back in the fasting swing, that regain will soon vanish.

Have you tried a chiropracter for your back ?
I found it magic when I had terrible backache 25 years ago - too much screenwork - and I still have a tuneup session 3 times per year

cheddar mfp and the NHS are geared to standard dieting every day.
On 5:2, the NFDs are "maintenance days" hence his guideline is to average TDEE over the 5 NFDs

Check your TDEE with Mosely's TDEE Calc which is more reliable than many others
He recommends that exercisers calculate with one activity lvel lower than they think

Don't eat back calories on FDs or NFDs via gadgets, or you'll be eating back twice.

pop Now you are back in healthy BMI - hooray ! 😄 / it is usual that loss slows right down if you are eating back the FD deficit on NFDs

If you want to reduce stomach fat, then I recommend in particular targetting added sugar, junky carbs (including savoury) and alcohol
That's because unless burned off, these calories are stored preferentially around the waist

mfp has been a shock reality check to many on these threads about how much above TDEE their "normal eating" is.
It finds the hidden calorie bombs and hightlights portion size, sugar & alcohol intake

Welcome, Africat 🙂
and well done on your SV so far.

Hi HLBug yes I knew I had a twinnie on here just couldn't remember who.

Hi BCF hope you are well. I have done everything for my back. I have disregarded physio. I do like a chiropractor, and they do seem to straighten me out but I don't find they are a miracle cure for my particular condition, like they see to be for so many of my friends.

I get a very tight set of muscles around my lower back around my sacroiliac nerve, from running mostly. Usually a good stretch out using some yoga stretches sorts it out, but every now and again, like now, I think my back wants to remind me I am nearly 44. [old gimmer]. I am not a natural runner (5 foot 4 inches like most of us on this thread IIRC? ) but I really enjoy it, but it hates me, so swimming it is for the meantime.

FD going well, 2 boiled eggs and not hungry. Hooray! I do think I totally build up FDs in my head as being harder than they actually are, as an excuse.