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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 82: Diet 2 days, eat "normally" on 5 days and retrain your "normal" to what your body burns

985 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 07/12/2018 23:37

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Mosely's TDEE Calc - Exercisers:Use 1 activity level below what you think
Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
OohMrDarcy · 11/01/2019 10:47

1.5 bottles of water down and doing good. The job I'm here to do is keeping me busy for now and keeping the steps up as I have to audit the entire site so lots of walking today.

hic - as someone else said - no problem with fasted exercise, but maybe make sure your body is used to fasting first.

quacking - hope you are feeling better today! 1.6lb is a good SV - well done!

PopGoesTheWeaz · 11/01/2019 11:12

I'm going to post an alternative view re exercise and suggest, as you have been regularly doing this level of activity to ease into fasting rather than the other way around ie try doing the martial arts after. 800 cal fast and work down to 500.

I find exercise after FD harder than on the actual FD as I still have fuel in the tank from NFD whereas the day after I'm running on empty (but then again, I'm a morning runner so may be different if you are at class at night)

OohMrDarcy · 11/01/2019 11:47

Today is getting hard.... but I will resist!

The site I am at doesn't have a canteen or anything so as long as I don't fall in my usual trap of driving to Maccies I will be fine - and I haven't got time to do that today! Hmm

snailhunter · 11/01/2019 11:52

Thank you for the sympathy, forty - last night we only had one tearful 'I have a horrible worried feeling in my belly' episode, which is pretty good!

SV for me this morning - down a 1.5lb to 10 stone! Am very pleased with that - I don't have much to lose so not expecting vast losses, just slow and steady at this point. Also good to see that not MFP-ing my NFDs is working, and healthy habits are becoming just part of normal life.

I was also pleased to notice that this exact time last year, just after I'd started 5:2, I was 10st 13lb! It was a great feeling to see just how well this WOE is working for me long-term. Almost a whole stone off, and kept off.

GrannyPenny · 11/01/2019 12:32

Checking back in before the weekend to confirm I haven't given up!

I'm not avoiding everyone and I love seeing all your successes, just that I find I can't read too much about food. It's all I think about at the moment - even when i'm eating a meal I'm thinking about what I'm having for the next one. The sugar cravings have gone and been replaced by craving carby savouries. MFPing everything is keeping me on track but the ride seems a bit bumpy at the moment. Sorry to sound a bit negative but I'm hoping someone can reassure me that this is normal?

On the plus side my jeans are looser and I think my nails are improving.

Have a good Friday and weekend everyone.

OohMrDarcy · 11/01/2019 12:46

Granny - I'm not an expert but I'd say craving carby stuff still is your body desperately trying to get some more sugar - even though it has given in on blatent sugar stuff.... does that make sense?
Keep it up, keep drinking the water etc and you'll be fine soon I would think

Snail glad you had a better night, 9 years old seems to be a time for more worrying. Mine has always been a take life as it comes type - but seems to care a bit more now

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 11/01/2019 12:59

Stay strong mrd we can do this Smile

Excellent SV snail well done and just 1 tearful episode is a bonus...

granny I know what you meant about constantly thinking about food, but focus on the positives and those looser jeans Grin but yes Mrd's advice to keep glugging those cravings away is sound - good luck

Lunch done and i'm freezing cold, think it will be soup for my tea - I get so cold on FDs but i'm sure this is normal??

Cheeeeislifenow · 11/01/2019 13:31

OoohMrDarcy

Hang on in there.
Manage strenuous excercise on a FD yet. But I have done either yoga or Pilates.
It's a NFD today, I have just been told I'm gross because I had anchovies on salsa on toast!

OohMrDarcy · 11/01/2019 14:39

Thanks cheese and 43, left site now without a detour so I'm proud of myself for that. Didn't even want it, it's just become habit at that site. Luckily only another 6 weeks or so and I won't be going there again. Phew. Grin

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 11/01/2019 14:48

well done mrd Smile

cheeee that sounds delicious actually, nice and salty!!! although i'd want to wash it down with a nice crisp cold glass of white wine or beer

BigChocFrenzy · 11/01/2019 16:23

Well done on your SV; Snail
and it's an important NSV that you have built good longterm habits

HIC get used to fasting for a couple of weeks, then try fasted exercise
Keep it to 1 hr at first

Looks a good plan, Calzone

Duck That's a good SV, 1.6 lb in a week.

Granny That's a waist and nails NSV

To help reduce cravings, boost protein & healthy fats - e.g. olive oil, unsweetened full fat Greek yoghurt, unsalted nuts -
add lots of veg
and replace half your starchy carb & fruit portions by peas, beans, lentils to help stabilise blood sugar

If the cravings persist more than a few days, then I suggest a couple of month low carb

  • if you are insulin resistant or even preT2, then your body probably doesn't handle starchy carbs well.

So Mosely's Fast 800, which has:
2 x 800FDs
daily Mediteranean Low Carb

  • this is ordinary lc + full fat yoghurt, peas, beans, lentils
OP posts:
OohMrDarcy · 11/01/2019 17:29

Home and food done, back on the water only until bed .... I did it! Grin

Weigh in tomorrow, and next fast is Tuesday

ScarletPower · 11/01/2019 17:30

Hi all

FD3/2019 - week 2

Today has been the hardest one yet. I had two boiled eggs when I got hungry at 11am but they did nothing so I have been starving all afternoon. I bet I have made loads of mistakes at work!

I had 4 x meatballs and roasted veg planned for tea but I was so hungry I had to make it early and have half of it at 4pm . I'd grabbed 2 x Ryvita thins when I was feeling sick from hunger so I'm slightly over cals today but not by many.

GrannyPenny · 11/01/2019 17:30

Thanks MrD 43 and BC. Makes a lot of sense. I've been limiting the carbs This past week, very little fruit but had a very high carb meal yesterday evening so maybe that set off the cravings.

Had a good conditioning class this morning, some prawns for lunch at around 100 cals and then a near 3 mile run this afternoon which came in just under a 10 min mile for first time this year. Just had full fat yoghurt, blueberries and chia seeds - cravings gone and mood uplifted.

Weigh in tomorrow.

BigChocFrenzy · 11/01/2019 19:00

Well done, MrD, Scarlet

Yes, granny I recommend you avoid high-carb meals
also avoid more than 1 daily portion low-sugar fruit (e.g. have berries, apple, pear)
Cut out fruit juice, dried fruit, breakfast cereals (except porridge oats, the kind you cook)

See how you go with moderate carbs and boosting the foods I suggested to replace some carbs

For most people who can't handle carbs, baked goods with wheat flour are often triggers.
Also, avoid mash or deep-fried food and swap to boiled / baked potato
Swap white rice for brown / red
Quinoa and rye bread are also lower GI than many carbs.

For moderate carbs, keep portion size per meal to 80g cooked weight, or 1 slice bread

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 11/01/2019 19:02

granny You are doing very well with exercise
and well done on your sub-10 minute miles

Chia seeds are very useful - drink plenty of water with them though and keep to 1 tbsp, so you don't get blocked up

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 11/01/2019 19:18

I've just had the unhealthiest FD - total idiocy Blush

i thought my supper soup tasted odd, but ate it all
then brought the pan ladle to be washed and licked it
.... it tasted of washing up liquid and I hadn't yet put it in the sink

I must have stirred my soup all the time with a ladle coated in washing up liquid
AARGH. I've drunk a litre of water after finding that, so I hope it dilutes it, but I can still taste it

I should stick to salads - i can't ruin those ! Blush

OP posts:
OohMrDarcy · 11/01/2019 19:34

Well done scarlet, you got through it!

Granny well done on the speedy running!

And BCF! I'm sorry, but that made me Grin .... with all the extra water, I hope you aren't bubbling up tonight!!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 11/01/2019 20:20

Oh dear bcf you'll be belching bubbles tonight Grin

Well done mrd kitchen closed here on 530 but I would kill for a g&t or glass of wine I can have it tomorrow

Early night for me I think, first post Xmas weigh in tomorrow and with totm I think it's still going to be horrid Shock hey ho, I think I need to brave the scales. Good luck granny on your weigh in tomorrow....

JcHcks · 11/01/2019 20:27

So my boyfriend has just said he's bringing home dominos for dinner tonight 😩 I haven't reached my tdee yet but I will be miles over. Can I do an extra fast day to make up for it?

TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 11/01/2019 21:48

Grin at BCF’s fairy liquid soup.

Jc, I’ve just discovered that MFP lets you monitor your average calorie intake over the week - I went over mine today, but it’s ok because my average is still around 1200 (only started logging on Tues). I think if you’ve been pretty restrained so far and your average is good, you’ll get away with the odd Dominos.

JcHcks · 11/01/2019 21:58

tooextra that's great thank you I've just found the average on my fitness pal. I have been under all week so hopefully I haven't done too much damage.

BigChocFrenzy · 11/01/2019 22:01

"I'm just blowing bubbles..."

Well, if it's like what happens with too spicy chilli then I'll blowing them out of, um, the other end ! 😂

Well done, 43

JC iirc, you have a v low TDEE, hence less well able than most folk to get away with indulgent days

The FDs so far would stop you actually gaining
However, if you are worried about slowing down progress, then I suggest you do a miniFD (sub-1000) tomorrow or Sunday if you can - that would haul it back

OP posts:
JcHcks · 11/01/2019 22:14

bigchoc thanks I'll make sure I do a mini fast tomorrow or Sunday. Would hate to lose my progress already. I weighed myself today and lost 2 pounds 😊

Cheeeeislifenow · 11/01/2019 23:17

Hi folks NFD.
@BigChoc
Oh my God how sickening when you have been looking forward to a meal.
Well done to all the fasters today. I feel like Friday would make it more difficult.

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