5:2 Thread number 82: Diet 2 days, eat "normally" on 5 days and retrain your "normal" to what your body burns

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Mosely's TDEE Calc - Exercisers:Use 1 activity level below what you think
Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Hello I have been lurking!!!
Just started this week with my FD being Tuesday and Today.
I am finding it strangely not hard.
I find it easier to be strict than allow myself moderation.
Also I have been unable to lose weight by just eating healthier everyday and excercise. I feel my metabolism needs to be re set if you get me, so that's why I'm doing 5:2.
I am 5' 7 and 15st 12 at the start of the week! Now 15' 10!
I have been re doing c25k (though not on FD) and some Pilates or yoga each morning.
I am drinking lots of water too.
Hope you don't mind me popping in to say hello..but I may need support from time to time!

Welcome cheese - these threads are a wealth of support, science, and laughs so hang around!

pop, no story, really - I just love it and we usually have semi-skimmed at work because that's what the canteen sells. I tend to get by on FDs with cups of tea and save calories for dinner, so it feels decadent to have full fat milk at work!

MrDarcy, yes, when i'm paying attention I can have a perfectly 'normal' day with breakfast, lunch and dinner for about 1400 calories without feeling even the slightest bit deprived. Say 200 for breakfast (instant porridge pot), 600 for lunch and 600 for dinner. Then I can have a few cups of tea and one treat/pudding/glass of wine etc. But I struggle at weekends because I have more lavish breakfast (eg a croissant/2 slices of toast with butter/or rarely something like a bacon roll), which are all more like 350 calories. That would be fine in itself - new total 1550. But then I also tend to have maybe a glass of wine or two (approx new total 1750-1800, which is my TDEE) and maybe a biscuit/cake/pudding type thing at some point as well - perhaps another 350 and then I'm suddenly on 2100 and well over my calorie limit. And that's not even counting days when we eat out or have people round with more drink or anything like that! My weekdays are pretty controlled, but weekends aren't. Yet. I struggle with the idea that a non-diet day needs to be so tightly controlled. Maybe it would be simpler to just not eat breakfast at weekends to ensure that I do have more free calories for everything else. Embrace the brunch!

Sorry, cross-posted with cheee - welcome, come away in!

Sorry for multiple posts, but it's making me realise that I need a weekend strategy that hopefully doesn't consist of using MFP forever and ever. I might try:

Brunch of circa 600 calories
Dinner 600 calories
Wine allowance - 300 calories
Pudding allowance - 300 calories
= total of 1800 and shouldn't need too much counting, because most of my meals fall within the 600 range.

Plus generally eating slightly lower during the week - aiming for 1500 which still leaves plenty for 3 square meals - so I can build up a calorie bank for more lavish weekends.

Darcy I do sort of know what you mean, but snacking (secret food prep/clean up calories), cheese and alcohol are my bombs. If I stick to my three square I'm fine for the most part. But then, DH will bring home a stick from Pauls and cheese from the nice cheese shop and some wine and all the sudden dinner is a 1k calorie feast (while oddly not seeming like much - just a bit of bread and cheese).

Which is fine, I'm really not against indulgences. I just need to make sure they are a once in a while thing rather than once a week thing.

cheddar thanks for explaining. I thought Id missed home miracle ff milk news :)

thanks for answering bcf that's very impressive! I am feeling so bloated today stupid TOTM. I've decided to do a mini FD on Sunday to give me an extra boost before I weigh on Monday because I really need to see a decent loss when I weigh in.
Hope everyones having a good day especially the fasters

Welcome cheese! I also find abstention much easier than moderation!

It's interesting to think about how much food your TDEE is, isn't it? I am watching my weight with interest as this year one of my targets is to achieve this WOE by only using MFP to check cals on fast days. I find if I use it all the time, I think about food all the bloody time! And I hate the feeling of being tied to my phone like that.

So weigh-in tomorrow after two weeks of fasting but no MFPing will be interesting. I feel that after using MFP for about six months I have a pretty good idea of what cals things contain, but we shall see...

I’ve had a boiled egg on toast for breakfast and a few other things when I’ve felt up to it - if I can keep it under a thousand can I count it as a mini fast for this week, and would I have to do another?

I’ve managed a fast all day 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

Had my last meal at about 7.30 last night and eaten nothing all day.

I’ve chopped up a salad for tonight which I will have with some tuna and mayonnaise......
And more water.

That’s awesome well done calzone👍

Welcome, cheee The more the merrier

Sounds like a good start on fasting and well done on your SV

Healthier habits are good, but often not enough alone to lose weight, because that requires a weekly calorie deficit, which the 2 FDs now provide for you

The contrast in intermittent fasting, between FDs and NFDs, helps keep up your metabolic rate

• unlike conventional diets, on which you need to daily eat a few hundred calories below TDEE, on 5:2 / IF you eat up to TDEE on some or all NFDs, which helps boost metabolism if you have been on other diets for a long time.

Also, difficulty in losing weight - even with a calorie deficit - can be partly due to insulin resistance and a "set point" at a weight you've held for a long time now, or in the past.
Fasting is the best way to lower set points and hence remove this resistance

MrD Now you are back in the fasting swing, you can see how much extra calories snacks can cause.
And takeaways.
So, use the NFDs to permanently break the snack habits
and keep takeaways for an occasional treat, to help your waist and your wallet

pop If you can stick to keeping treats as part of a meal, then this both reduces how much you have of them and also lets your insulin drop enough between meals to burn a bit more fat

re eating with your DH:
most women have a TDEE several hundred below their male OH - sometimes only half, as 1500 TDEE is normal for a short woman and 3000 not unusual for a tall man who is active

Even with the same age, height, weight and exercise level, a man will have a higher TDEE - you can check this in the calulator by just switching sex for your OH or youj.

So, sharing the calorie bombs equally would have very different effects on the two of you
This is a big reason why so many women put on weightonce they have a longterm partner
It's often instructive to calculate his TDEE as well, to get an idea of how much more he can eat

Cheddar It's a good idea to have a weekend plan, in which you choose which treats you can have:
wine, pudding, indulgent brunch - but not all of them the same day

That's not "dieting" - it's learning to eat what you body can burn over the 5 NFDs, even if you bank some weekday calories for the weekend.
NFDs are "maintenance" days, not "eat all you want" days, unless you have a very high TDEE and / or no interest in calorie bombs.

Mosely's original book did say "eat all you want", but he modified this later to "eat roughly TDEE" once he realised that his own naturally disciplined habits as a doctor / TV presenter are not typical of most of us !

Many people who have been overweight a long time have got used to averaging considerably above TDEE most days.
Hence they need to use NFDs to retrain their "normal", both in order to lose and later to avoid regain after they reach goal

What is also common is that during the teenage years and early 20s, people get used to being able to eat anything without gaining excess weight
However, that phase of life is when your body is growing and then filling out from a teen to a full adult.

You can never eat like that again, unless you do an enormous amount of regular sport and probably not even then as you reach your 30s, 40s etc especially when peri / meno starts later

Every decade your TDEE naturally falls, even if you retain all your muscle - you can check this by calculating TDEE for the same height, weight and activity level, but adding on 20 years.

Also, as you lose weight, even with the muscle retention of 5:2, your TDEE will fall and need to be recalculated with each stone.

These facts are why it is more difficult to lose weight in middle age and more difficult to keep going if you have several stone to lose:
it requires a lot of adjustment to the intake

Hi all...busy thread & going well by the looks.
Totally agree mrdarcy it's hard to eat all an allowance when you cut out snacks & think about it. My meals are ok it was the 'inbetweens' that did it. My tackle is now the wine o'clock. Only 2 glasses now once in the week & then 3 on Friday & Saturday.
Good effort calzone..I only got to 2.30.
FD may go toward a mini...as cals could be in the 700s...shouldnt of eaten a mini pitta for lunch.

mickey I recommend avoiding scales during totm, because they are misleading
Especially if a blip can demotivate you and even cause you to lose focus for the day.

Instead, WAIT:
weigh yourself after the 1st FD following the end of totm - that FD normally zaps any remaining retained water from totm.

Pumper As you are ill, I definitely recommend waiting until next Monday at least, before you fast

FYI, when you are well again:
sub-1000 cals is a minFD, provided it follows the other rules of an FD,
i.e. no alcohol or junk food

Take care of yourself 💐 - drink plenty of water and have a very early night

If you put more work into a salad it definitely pays off.

Lettuce
Cucumber
Mushroom
Onions
Sweetcorn
Tuna
Mayonnaise

Really good
Was like a Subway salad.

@bigchocfrenzy

That is exactly what I have been reading. And yes I have been stuck at the same weight for so long.
And I believe that insulin resistance is an issue Tor me I had GD on last pregnancy five years ago and carry all weight around my middle.
Glad to be with people who think the same, getting some flack from friends who think fasting is dangerous.
But I have felt no I'll effects at all apart from a little hunger, which is as I am teaching myself okay to be hungry because I will eat again!!

Yup, I looove big mixed salads;
I add peppers & red cabbage too,
sometimes walnuts crushed and small chunks of apple

Then I add prawns on top, fried in a little algae oil, then drained
or I go to my fav restaurant for salmon fillet and their big mixed salad

Dressing Tip:
I've long swapped mayo in salads for balsamic vinegar / lemon especially on FDs
or vinaigrette dressing

mayo and other creamy dressings are calorie bombs, especially on FDs
so are croutons or cheese

I prefer to have more of the most nutritious parts of the meal - protein and salad veg
Olive / algae oil are super-healthy for NFDs, but just have 1-2 tasp on FDs if you want them

cheee They are ignorant of the science, which has now been established for several years.
People who shouldn't fast are those with serious illnesses / conditions - who muct consult their doctors first - or those with EDs

Fasting is now used by some doctors, e.g. diabetes, kidney, cancer specialists as part of regular treatment and longterm lifestyle for their patients

Specialists like Dr Jason Fung (kidneys, esp. damage due to T2) have written many articles and even books advocating fasting

You can refer to some of the peer-reviewed science in the Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
at the end of the OP

Exciting announcement all

Mr Michael Moseley himself appears to be doing a webcast next week

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/mumsnet_live_events/3475465-Webchat-with-Dr-Michael-Mosley-author-of-The-Fast-Diet-and-The-Fast-800-on-Tuesday-15-January-at-1pm

Oh, that's good. Thanks for the headsup, MrD
He did one a few years ago on his first 5:2 book

Well I've finished on 477 on my second fast day 😁 I say finished, I reaaaally want to eat something lol but I'm confident I won't.....I think!

Yes, think I was on my original 5:2 stint then!

Well done, JC
Clean your teeth now to help avoid temptation
and prep to have an early night