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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 82: Diet 2 days, eat "normally" on 5 days and retrain your "normal" to what your body burns

985 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 07/12/2018 23:37

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Mosely's TDEE Calc - Exercisers:Use 1 activity level below what you think
Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
BigChocFrenzy · 09/01/2019 19:27

and see if you can fit in the mini on Friday or Saturday, not tomorrow
as fasting on 3 successive days sounds like it could be too much for you

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 09/01/2019 19:30

Groovie Fitness in old age is of course partly dependent on not suffering a serious accident or illness - so some degree of luck.

We can only do our best with the areas of life under our control: nutrition, exercise, sleep, general TLC etc

OP posts:
JcHcks · 09/01/2019 19:52

What does b2b mean? 😳

JcHcks · 09/01/2019 20:03

If someone has a tdee of 1300 that means they'll only have a deficit of 800 for the week, will it be hard from them to lose weight? Should they do less than 1300 on nfd?

mickeymacca · 09/01/2019 20:07

Wow bcf that’s impressive.., how old are you? Or if that’s too rude what age bracket??😁

TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 09/01/2019 21:13

FD1 (of B2B) coming in at 675. Bit apprehensive about tomorrow! Still, once it’s done it’s done and I can relax a bit.

JcHcks, b2b is back to back fast days - fasting on consecutive days.

Borris · 09/01/2019 21:27

Well done all the fasters.

Rosa that’s a fab start and great to identify your weaknesses.

It seems like there’s a few of us with a post Christmas gain to lose, but I’m sure it won’t take us long.

Bcf - also joining the fan girl club for your hardcore lifestyle!

I have a day off tomorrow and so will make sure at the very least I do a HIIT session at home. There’s no excuse for not fitting it in.

Nfd for me today has gone ok. Not amazing but ok. Had the last but one slice of Christmas cake as pud.

PopGoesTheWeaz · 09/01/2019 21:35

jchcks b2b = Back to back, when you have your two fast days in a row.

I think your math may be slightly out. if TDEE is 1300 and FD is 500, then twice a week there is a deficit of 800, or 1600/week so I think loss would be around 1 lbs every fortnight or so. BCF may have other advice, but I wouldn't try for a lower TDEE off the bat as that is already really low (Did you use Mosely's calculator?) but I'd stick with standard TDEE and 2 FD for a few weeks and see how you get on. IT's not necessarily suited for fast dieting but is more about retraining yourself so that your TDEE comes naturally

Calzone · 09/01/2019 21:44

Finished on 1000 calories today.

No snacking Day 3.

JcHcks · 09/01/2019 22:13

pop great thank you. I'll stick at it and see how it goes. Yes I used Mosley, it's actually 1390 for me. I'm only 5 foot and quite small but I still have a lot of fat on lower half to loose. After a couple weeks if I'm not loosing I'll try lowering it maybe. I know I'm gonna struggle more cause I don't have so much to lose :(

RosaPalma · 09/01/2019 23:39

Thanks BCF. I would love your almond flour bread recipe please.

Today's FD over and I finished up at 580 which I am happy with. No snacking, bread or chocolate Grin. I am tucked up in bed and ready for some zzzzs. Good night all and thanks for all the support.

Calzone · 10/01/2019 08:02

I’m going for a FD today.

Lots of water and coffee.

OohMrDarcy · 10/01/2019 08:12

Morning all, another NFD here. Planning on nothing but water until lunchtime again and will see how I go.

A lovely Jamie Oliver chicken and mushroom pie for dinner with extra veggies to be had. Will make sure I don't have too much pastry!

greenelephantscarf · 10/01/2019 08:24

checking in for a fd today.
good luck troupe!

jc maybe try plotting what you really eat? look up and weigh your portions. look up hidden calories (milk in tea, honey in porridge erc).
doing that was a real eye opener to me!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 10/01/2019 08:44

Morning everyone, yesterday's nfd didn't quite go as planned as I ended up having a bottle of beer and g&t and a couple of chocs from the Xmas leftovers bur problem not much over tdee. But totm arrived in the early hours so I'm blaming that!!!

Nfd today and will do much better, just a skinny latte to see me through to lunch then chicken salad, 2 clementines and a sugar free jelly, not sure yet re: dinner but no snacks and no alcohol Smile

Good luck calzone and green and any other fasters

Borris · 10/01/2019 09:04

Your nfd doesn’t sound too bad 43. As a one off. So a good one today and you’ll be back on track.

Nfd here. Has weetabix for breakfast (I like to eat brekker with dd) and then prob poached eggs for lunch. We’re having salmon veg and mash potatoes for tea.

snailhunter · 10/01/2019 09:29

Fd for me today - busy day ahead! Just had a coffee with a splash of milk so far - will hold out until dinner which will be veggie stir-fry.

quackingduck222 · 10/01/2019 09:35

Mickey - That’s really wise to give the scales a wide birth for a few days. Well done on your FD.

Darcy- I would go for busy day to keep your mind occupied.

43 - That sounds perfect motivation and a nice timescale too. It’s great to have some set goals.

Cheddar- Definitely worth trying a B2B. It’s 650 and the extra 150 cals buys you a lot of extra food.
Eating upto TDEE if I wasn’t hungry then I personally wouldn’t but I’m the sort of person to bank the left over cals for a Friday treat.

StirCrazy - Are you in maintenance now?

Scarlet - Congratulations on your first weigh in. 5.4lbs is bloody fantastic.

Kapoww- Well done on your FD, how did you find it?

Groovie - Well done on your B2B.

Pop - Hope you have a lovely Xmas. That sounds like a good plan better to have something if you need it rather than suffering.

Rosa - Hope your FD went well. I was a huge snacked prior to 5:2 especially late af night I’d take a sweet snack up with me. It took me a while but the no snacking rule really helped with this. If you want something make it part of the meal. For me it was the hardest part but after a while does become second nature. I’ve found really small changes over time have made a massive difference overall but if you do it gradually it’s not changing everything at once and makes it so much easier.

MrDarcy well done on your FD, you nailed it.

AllTalk - If I was you I would personally do another mini. Spread out over the week 2 FDs and a mini would be fine but I think all together would be too much.

JcHcks is your TDEE 1300? That sounds awfully low. Are you sure that’s your TDEE and not your bMR? I would urge everyone to double check as I made that mistake and used the BMR reading of 1,400 instead of almost 1,700. For over a year as it’s easily done.

43 - That honestly doesn’t sound too bad, are the Xmas chocs out the way now?

Day2 of B2B, I’m feeling positive so far and feeling hopeful the scales will be nice to me tomorrow.

Good luck to all the Thursday fasters.

Pumperthepumper · 10/01/2019 09:50

Should be fasting today but I feel totally horrendous- fever, achy, exhausted, shivering etc. Don’t really feel like eating just now so maybe it’ll just naturally work out as a fast day but I’m going to eat if I feel up to it, I think. Best of luck to everyone fasting today 👍

Borris · 10/01/2019 10:02

Oh pumper. Hope you feel better soon. I agree, eat what you need today. If it turns out a FD then great, if not then do what you need to get healthy again

TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 10/01/2019 10:03

Day 2 of B2B here too - I am armed with full fat milk! I can usually manage 4 cups of milky tea plus dinner on a FD - on a B2B I ought to be able to have slightly more. Didn't weigh this morning because I felt bloated - goal today is to drink lots of water.

Good luck duck, snail, greenelephant, calzone and anyone else fasting today!

Pumperthepumper · 10/01/2019 10:24

Thanks Boris Flowers

BigChocFrenzy · 10/01/2019 10:28

Good luck Thursday fasters !

I hope you feel better soon, pumper 💐

Don't deliberately fast when you have a bug; just eat what you can, reasonably nutritious food if poss, to supprot your immune system
and drink lots of water

Mickey I'm aged 62
I've been 5:2ing for over 5 years, so about 4.5 years on maintenance.

JC At 5', your TDEE of 1390 sounds about right
I recommend you aim for 1400 on NFDs for the first 3 weeks and see how you get on

It is better to lose slowly, rather than go below TDEE in your case, because that wouldn't be much to eat and might not be sustainable.

If you have a social event or some other reason that 0.5lb per week is too slow, then I would suggest adding an extra miniFD, but keep eating up to your TDEE on the NFDs

To tackle waist fat, cut right back on sugary treats and alcohol, as these kind of excess calories are stored preferentially around the waist

OP posts:
PopGoesTheWeaz · 10/01/2019 10:33

Made it through to tea time yesterday but then got a bit handsy with my cooking so MFP says 800 cals for yesterday. today as day 2 of B2B and am feeling fine. Realise it's only 10:24 but DH tried to sabotage me by waking up early and making pancakes for the family. This has literally never happened before. But I said they smelled lovely and reached for my coffee instead. He saved some batter so I'll have mine tomorrow.

pumper take it easy today and just listen to what your body needs. I had similliar in early december and found I couldn't eat anything but drank loads and loads of water and even a bit of juice (which I never have) as I was worried about not having any fuel to fight the lurgy.

cheddar whats the story with the full fat milk? (Sorry if I've missed it upthread)

OohMrDarcy · 10/01/2019 13:30

Afternoon all

Just had my yummy lunch, and back on the water until dinner time (NFD here).

Is it me, or is it actually quite hard to go over TDEE (assuming its not mega low) unless you're eating out / take aways or just not paying attention? I clearly was eating quite far over TDEE before December as I just kept gaining... and yet now - I'm struggling to fill my cals whilst sticking to not snacking etc!

I know the answer is obvious and its the snack calorie bombs and the takeaways that were the problem, but it is interesting isn't it. I've had a filling lunch - wasn't even the most healthy! A ham and mayo little baguette thing, a chocolate mousse and some cheese puffs (weighed out a portion).... That and my pie tonight, without even eating less of the pastry takes me to just over 1200 cals - my TDEE is 1000 more! I was closer yesterday, but either way - definitely interesting (to me anyway!) I'm concentrating on eating to hunger and minimising the snacking / focusing on just water in the mornings. If I can make this habit I shouldn't have a problem really. The main thing will be ensuring those habits happen in holidays etc - where I've come unstuck before!