5:2 Thread number 82: Diet 2 days, eat "normally" on 5 days and retrain your "normal" to what your body burns

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Mosely's TDEE Calc - Exercisers:Use 1 activity level below what you think
Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

thanks mrd yes I woke up headache free thankfully!!! I reckon you should join me in my friday fd, I try and do these as often as I can to limit any weekend damage, be good to have some company

Well done borris that's not bad at all considering. I'm with you mickey and not weighing until saturday after fd2 and hopefully totm will have arrived!!

Calzone well done on not bingeing, stay strong
Enjoy your new exercise class granny
quacking good luck on your B2B

Just booked a lovely indulgent weekend away with my mate for mid march and have a gorgeous dress in mind that I want to wear for dinner and cocktails so this is my motivation

Good luck everyone fasting today!

Bug, glad to hear your DF is doing well!

Duck, I'm with you on B2B today and tomorrow - didn't have enough time left to do two separate FDs either! I haven't tried a B2B before, but they sound relatively easy (she says cautiously). Is it 650 calories each day or 750?

Mickey, I'm not weighing for a few days either - TOTM combined with post-Christmas lardiness would probably mean a horrific result on the scale and I will just get miserable.

Yesterday was a good NFD - I ate plenty but my dinner was light as DH was fasting (fried haddock and broccoli with homemade bearnaise sauce) and once I had eaten it I still had 500 calories left! So I had a wee bit of ham baguette that the children had abandoned, a cup of tea and a couple of mini millionaire's shortbread bites and I was still 200 calories under my NFD limit. Are you supposed to eat for the sake of hitting your TDEE even if you aren't hungry?

Morning all

Glad the headaches have gone 43 the dress sounds like excellent motivation. I’m going to continue 2 days a week for now but aim for 800-900 a day and see how that goes. I think I might start ‘forgetting’ if I go to 6:1?!

cheddar I missed the post about the stealth fast... cheeky whatsit!! My DH is rake thin and eats like a horse.. very annoying and one of the reasons I ended up piling on pounds. 😡

bug glad the op went well, you must feel very relieved.

Well done to all on nailing FDs and SV’s lovely to see the thread so busy. I’m making lamb and squash coconut curry for tea (NFD) completely winging it so it will be interesting to see how it turns out! 🤣

Good for you, Calzone A sensible eating NSV
Stay focused and you're on your way to forming good longterm habits

duck The book is basically a couple of weeks BSD,
then easing into the 5:2 BSD that he recommends for longterm maintenance, mainly for those who tend to insulin resistance / preT2
It has the more recent science since his last books
I found it interesting, even though I have all the previous ones

Good luck, Wednesday fasters !

I got weighed this morning (decided to do it after my 2nd fast day even though it's only day 6 today and not strictly a week finished) and I have lost 5.4lbs! I know a lot of this is water but I'm still pleased as it's 10% of the total amount I want to lose.

I'm going to try and stick to Friday and Tuesday from now on.

Hi all,
Just checking in. I’m on a FD today, my second of the week and fourth since Xmas. I put on a kilo over Xmas which isn’t too bad considering! Nice to be back into it now though. Happy new year to you all.

ok 43, I'm in for Friday!

congrats Scarlet - that is fab!

Good luck to those fasting - Kapoww etc

Too - I would only eat to hunger personally - Obviously, as you lose your TDEE will go down and I find fasting lowers my appetite in general anyway so I don't think its a bad thing.

Hi great to read everyone this morning.

I managed my B2B yesterday ok and I'm really pleased. It was difficult to motivate myself to do my new exercise routine today but it's done.

BCF I didn’t know that women don't normally put on a huge amount of muscle. Thanks for that info. Plus, now I can see that I could have changed the type of exercise too. That’s given me good things to think about and maybe even to look forward to.

You sound to be in such good shape, having muscle & power in your early 60s BCF. That’s fabulous !

This is also what I’m wanting for later years too. I’m not there yet but I know several very old people who have stopped walking because they’re unsure of their stability and I’m wondering if it’s to do with not having much muscle strength.

Hello everyone. Checking in after a lovely long and indulgent Christmas holiday. Was on the other side of the world, staying with my foodie in-laws so knew I was going to gain and just accepted it as I wanted to enjoy my time with them. Did literally run my ass off, but I guess not enough as managed to gain 3 KG. Never mind. I will tackle it with this WOL soon enough I'm sure.

Back in December I committed to doing a week of MFP to get me back on track. Today is day 1 of my B2B and in theory I'm fine at the moment, but really worried I won't make it through as I was up at 4 with jet lag and my body signals area all over the place. I normally save all of my calories for dinner but I brought an emergency lunch in that's 200 calories. So my totals may be higher than usual but if it gets me back on track/in the groove I'll take it. And DH is away next week so that should help as much easier to avoid treats and booze when he isn't around scarfing it all down. :D

Hi all checking in for FD2. I am not entirely sure what I am going to have later but will likely involve broccoli as I have two crowns in the fridge.

I had a read over some of the posts and have identified a number of weak areas that tend to trip me up.

1. I have a tendency to snack. This I think is one of my biggest challenges and is the key to long term success for me, I believe.
2. I have a sweet tooth. I really need to face up to this and acknowledge that I consume far too much sugar than what is good for me. When I fasted previously I did get this under control so I know I can I just need to be honest with myself about what I am consuming now.
3. I love carbohydrates such as bread, pancakes, cakes, biscuits etc. I love nothing more than a slice of toast and jam or a biscuit with a cup of tea but on the positive side I equally love toast with a thin spread of almond or peanut butter. As a coeliac though a lot of gluten free products are packed with extra sugars and fats so can be quite unhealthy as well as being calorie bombs. I need to be more moderate and ensure that I read labels properly. I try to stick to sourdough bread but this is not always possible. Also as someone who had gestational diabetes and who holds my fat in the abdomen this carb weakness along with my sweet tooth is not a good thing.
4. My weakest point for overeating/snacking is around 4 or 5 in the afternoon after I bring the kids home from school and prepare food for them. I need to work on this.
5. I usually have a couple of coffees with milk on my FD. After reading some of yesterday's posts maybe I am losing some of the benefits by doing this. So this morning I had only one coffee and I had it black. It was palatable but I do prefer with milk. I have resisted so far but if I hold out for another hour I expect I will have gained some benefit by not triggering insulin spikes.

All in all, it is all good or potentially good in that hopefully by identifying my weaknesses I can try to address them. Thanks for reading and hope all my fellow fasters have a good day.

well done on the b2b Groovie

Well done on booking in your return to this WOE pop - very important to ensure success! (and one of the things I wasn't so good at either!)

Rosa - hope you nail your FD... sounds like you are learning lots.

NFD for me and I managed nearly 19 hours between FD dinner last night and lunch today before eating, very happy with that. Am considering aiming for that or around there daily - which basically ensures I eat dinner at a more acceptable time for the rest of the world, knock on effect being less crap eaten late at night, ahem.

fingers crossed.

That's an amazing loss, rosa, well done and well done for identifying your weak areas. Mine are pretty similar! I make my own sourdough now - it takes a little time to get into it but once you have your starter going it's really easy. I use Hugh Fearley-Whittingstall's recipe, here: www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/may/10/hugh-fearnley-whittingstall-recipes-sourdough

I also know that food prep time is a big trigger for me. I've found that having a herbal tea while I'm cooking is really helpful. I love ginger tea, and green tea, so if you develop a taste for one of those then do try it.

Food prep (and clean up of kids food) is a huge trigger for me too. Usually one FD a week I don't have to deal with it, but I'm going to try the tea trick on the others and NFDs as well

Congratulations on your SV, Scarlet
That's a good first week

Welcome back, Kapoww
That's only a small regain over the long Christmas / NY holiday feasts
You'll soon be back on track and then losing further

Well done on your b2b, Groovie

With physical capability, it really is "use it or lose it",
especially for those of us hoping to maintain fitness and independence for as long as poss in old age.
Women are lifting weights and running marathons into their 80s and 90s - and I hope to be one of them !

I go to the gym 5-6 days per week.
I can lift 141 kg 7 310 lb with my legs and 75kg with my upper body.
During the working week, I usually cycle 30-35 km per day, because I have been visually disabled some years and can no longer drive - an example of why fitness can be so useful.

Even today, I found my bike had a puncture and I had to get to the dentist, but I was easily able to jog the 4 km in time.
(Just back from the dentist to have my infected gum put back together
One side of my face is frozen, so I'm sitting here drooling and not allowed to eat or drink for another hour)

In the decades before retirement, we need exercise to build bone density and muscular strength.
e.g. Exercises like squats mean you are more likely to be able to get out your chair in later years

However, it's never to late to rebuild muscle & strength - studies on people in care homes in their 80s have found they can still do this with regular lifting exercises

Welcome back, pop
Don't worry if you need to ease into fasting with an 800 FD, or even a mini (sub-1000)
Being jetlagged can cause all sorts of cravings and make it difficult to focus.

Drink lots of water and have an early night.

Rosa If you can stop snacking that will be an excellent first step

On FDs, it's ok to have hot drinks with milk, so long as you count the calories
Nut milk - unsweetened almond / cashew etc - is very low cal, only about 15 cals for 100 ml and most people wouldn't want more than 50 ml, which is nothing
Sugar or sweeteners can raise insulin and make you hungrier, so try to train yourself to do without on FDs at least

However, do what you need to do in order to regularly nail the FDs
You can always perfect the content later

Those who tend to accumulate their fat around the middle are usually insulin-resistant, so they don't handle starchy carbs well.
With excess calories, sugar & alcohol are stored preferentially as fat around the waist

Cutting back on sugary crap will help
and being moderate with carb portions - per meal no more than 100g cooked weight or 2 slices bread
Also keep to NHS alcohol limits, whenever you drink

If you can eat peas / lentils / beans, then these are excellent carb substitutes for helping to fill you up and also stabilise blood sugar
Obviously boost veg too, all the colours.

If GF products are crap, can you bake your own bread with almond flour ?
Lots of great GF recipes around for bread & muffins etc
I can link if you wish

That souds a good plan, MrD to help cut back on junk and form new longterm habits

All good here.

No snacking at all.

Beans and eggs
Marmite and salad sandwich
Apple
Tangerine
Carrot

I’ve got 650 calories left for tonight.

Sounds good, Calzone
Boost veg for supper, to keep feeling full
You get masses for very few cals and very little sugar compared to fruit

BCF, you jogged to the dentist with an infected gum? Ouch! I am in absolute awe of your hardcore-ness. Also your strength - wow!

Well done scarlet fab start

Thats not bad going kapoww

High five mrd

Well done on your b2b and exercise groovie

Ouch pop but that will soon be off...

rosa I'd say perseverance with the no snacking ruke is key I think as you soon really don't miss them... good luck with your fd

bcf you are bloody awesome!

Excellent no snacking calzone you are doing well....

Nfd and had soup and chicken and the last little piece of Xmas cake for lunch it's gone now right.... got chicken skewers flatbread and salad for dinner....

Not long now weds fasters

Not that awesome as my head was spinning !
But it shows that fitness can carry you through an "emergency" like suddenly not having transport for an imminent appointment.

I always recommend exercise, not just to help weight loss - in fact it may not if you eat more ! -
but because it improvoes your health and it is just very useful to be able to move and lift things, without relying on someone else.

Yes, I was very glad to be very fit when we were snowed in a few years ago and I had to drag small child the two-mile trek from nursery on a sledge!

"use it or lose it"!
What a lovely way to sum our relationship with fitness and old age BCF.

That sounds exactly where I’m coming from. Where I live, I see these old people who have lots of physical problems and who have become very dependent in others of on the care system and I want something different to this.

I love the description of women
lifting weights and running marathons into their 80s and 90s !
That sounds amazing ! 😊

And what can I say about your own achievements BCF ?! « Well done » is a very short phrase and, in truth, it falls very short from what I’d like to say.

I am really impressed and also I am wondering how far down this same track I’m going to go myself...

Thankyou so much for sharing the fruit of all your efforts and your experience. Sending my very best wishes to you and everyone on this thread today.

Question - I had a full FD yesterday and a mini today (accidentally). I was planning a FD again tomorrow but would another mini suffice for this week? I'm feeling a bit low on energy and not sure I have the willpower for another full FD tomorrow.

Alltalk definitely have a mini if you've already had an FD and a mini the last 2 days
Try and have an early night tonight, to give your bod more time to recover

in any case, 2 miniFDs are probably equivalent to a bit more than 1 FD
That's why the 3 miniFD system (Minis on Mon+Wed+Fri) works about as well as 5:2