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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 82: Diet 2 days, eat "normally" on 5 days and retrain your "normal" to what your body burns

985 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 07/12/2018 23:37

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Mosely's TDEE Calc - Exercisers:Use 1 activity level below what you think
Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
ScarletPower · 08/01/2019 18:06

FINALLY got MFP to work!

Not calculated the final total yet but it will be around 600

Made a fritata today which I split into two portions and ate half at 11 am and the other half at 5pm and had enough cals for an apple and a couple of Ryvita thins.

I have a non-scale victory today (after just 5 days) and that is that I needed a belt with my jeans today already.

Borris · 08/01/2019 18:35

B2b d2 for me. Mostly ok although had a birthday cake wobble and ate 2 maltesors at work. Could have been worse tho. Fish pie for tea and I’ll be 650 +2 maltesers.

First weigh in after Christmas for me tomorrow. 😬

GroovieGazelloo · 08/01/2019 19:02

Thanks a lot for all the information on maintaining BCF. It's a big help to know where I'm going with all this this time round. 😀

I'm glad you'll be around when I get to that stage Stircrazy. I'll be learning from you in the meantime. 😀

Another difficulty I had a hard time getting my head round was the exercise part. I had grown muscles which I was happy about but I didn't want them getting any bigger and I absolutely did not know how to go from there on. So gradually I just stopped. 😌

GroovieGazelloo · 08/01/2019 19:04

Last meal on 2nd B2B day is being cooked by DH. Fingers crossed that I can make it without any blips. 🤞

OohMrDarcy · 08/01/2019 19:12

Dinner done. All being well I'm almost bang on for a 500 cal FD.

Scarlett congrats on the NSV, a fab start!

I can see my belly is visibly flatter already, I do love this WOE

greenelephantscarf · 08/01/2019 19:20

kitchen closed at just over 500
very tired tonight, so I hope dc let me have an early one.

mickeymacca · 08/01/2019 19:34

Well done borris just 2 Maltesers is impressive! I’ve managed well on my one meal today. Just been drinking water and herbal tea since 3 and survived making kids dinner and husbands without feeling tempted. About to get in bed with my book and read for an hour or two before bed😄

alltalknobaby · 08/01/2019 19:36

Well done scarlet on your NSV, and borris, green, groovie, darcy, losing on your FDs 💪🏻

Kitchen closing on 536 here. That's my first proper sub-600 FD, and it was tough in places but not as bad as I thought it would be. I can't wait for porridge for breakfast tomorrow 😆

HLBug · 08/01/2019 19:57

Evening all, just a quick note to say that DF came through his operation absolutely fine. He'll be in intensive care for a few days but all looking good so far for recovery. DM and I have been actually ok food wise over the last few days. NFDs but keeping to 16:8 or 14:10 and actual meals, no snacking. I think that's pretty good in the circumstances! Not sure when my next FD will be - taking each day as it comes.

alltalknobaby · 08/01/2019 20:53

Good news bug SmileThanks

OohMrDarcy · 08/01/2019 21:09

Great to hear bug

Well done all on the successful FDs

BigChocFrenzy · 08/01/2019 21:11

Great news, bug 💐
and you did very well wrt healthy food habits

Well done on your FD, borris, MrD, green, losing
and on your tum NSV, MrD

You are progressing really well with fasting, alltalk

A good night's sleep if possible is part of our FD self-care. green
so fingers crosssed the DC let you sleep

losing 60g protein isn't a "rule" as such, just a useful guide to keep you feeling fuller.
In fact 60g is more for NFDs - Mosely says 40-45g is plenty for FDs

Boost protein on FDs or NFDs if you find you feel hungry; leave as it is if you don't
Masses of veg are also very helpful to fill your tum - that's what I find most useful, v healthy too.

AIm for a good chunk of protein, e.g. a fish fillet / 2 eggs / chicken breast / Halloumi slices on at least your main FD meal and that is fine

5:2 and even ADF have been shown to actually preserve muscle, unless standard diets which lose muscle as well as fat. That's why many fitness models & bodybuilders use intermittent fasting.

We don't fast anywhere near long enough to worry about losing muscle
and also the fasting is "buffered", i.e. we take in the 500+ calories

  • that's partly why the real rules are no junk our booze on FDs: to maximise nutrition on limited cals

groovie Women don't normally put on a huge amount of muscle, so you were unlikely to get more muscular after that point.
if you become concerned again, what can give you tone, strength and fitness without this are classes like circuits, Pilates
rather than lifting barbells a lot.
Also, do HIIT cardio and if you think you have reached the muscle you want, then swap a strength class for cardio - spin or running

Personally, I like having muscle & power and in my early 60s I am especially wanting to maximise this for later years.
So I lift heavy and quite often, as well as HIIT and cycling, but we all have individual goals depending on our life stages.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 08/01/2019 21:13

^ unless unlike standard diets which lose muscle as well as fat.^

OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 08/01/2019 21:36

Thats good news bug Flowers

Well done everyone fasting today... kitchen closed here on 565, the last couple of hours have been hard and I've a cracking headache so I'm off up the dancers Grin night all....

BigChocFrenzy · 08/01/2019 21:58

Well done, 43

OP posts:
Racheyg · 08/01/2019 22:36

bigchoc sorry for the constant questions I hope you don't mind......

What happens about the cals burnt while exercising? I wear a heart rate monitor so know roughly how many I burn per class. For example tonight I did a 45 min spin class and burnt 530

Thanks again x

Borris · 08/01/2019 22:38

Great news about your dad bug.

And well done fasters - sounds like a successful day for all of us Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 08/01/2019 23:07

Rachey No problem, but there i a lot of info to in the OP, under "How to Start" or "Tips"

On FDs, there are no extra cals for exercise
Even if you end up with theoretically "minus" calories, this is still ok.

On NFDs, if you track calories, do NOT use gadgets (e.g. fitbit or gym machines) to increase your food,
because these often over-estimate calories burned.

Instead, you can allow for NFD exercise via TDEE.

If you don't want to track calories, but just need an estimate of any extra allowed, then obtain this by calculating TDEE and then subtracting from it the TDEE for sedentary.

This is Mosely's calculator, more reliable than some others : Calc TDEEE*
If you are a regular exerciser, then Mosely recommends using one activity level lower than you think

OP posts:
Calzone · 08/01/2019 23:38

Yay!

No bingeing day 2.

Ate my 3 meals mindfully.

Had spaghetti and meatballs with courgetti and a tangerine.
And water.

Very pleased with myself.

Calzone · 08/01/2019 23:44

Plan for tomorrow.....

Late breakfast of poached eggs and beans
Apple

Ham, salad sandwich and banana, yoghurt

Linda McCartney’s sausages with lentils and vegetables
Asparagus

GrannyPenny · 08/01/2019 23:48

So pleased to hear your update HLBug. Hope he's out of IC soon.

Taking expert advice, I cancelled tonight's pilates and booked gym circuits tomorrow instead. At the moment I'm looking forward to it but I daresay I'll be not quite so enthusiastic in the morning!

Some excellent FDs going on - hoping to join you Thursday next week by which time my self-inflicted sugar cravings should have worked their way out of my system. I'm fiddling with my "stay strong" ring so much my finger's getting a bit sore so I've made another ring from thin silver wire with a knot in it. Impossible to get nicely round because of the knot but very comfy to wear so I think I'll make that my gold treat project and should have enough pound coins in my junk food jam jar by middle of next week. Win win.

Borris · 09/01/2019 08:04

65.4kg today. Was 64.2 before Christmas so really pleased with this. Won’t be too long until I’ve undone the damage and am losing again

quackingduck222 · 09/01/2019 08:28

Hi everyone, sorry been hectic the last few days so just catching up with the thread.

Welcome to the newbies and returning posters.

BCF - Let is know what the new MM book is like as I’ve enjoyed the last two so may consider getting this one. Is the new 800 FD based on the med diet? Like a inbetween 5:2 and BSD?

Bug that’s great news, look after yourself.

I’ve not managed to get the Xmas weight back off yet so I’ve decided to try for a B2B today and tomorrow. Partly due to bad planning on my part and not having enough days this week to get 2 FDs under my belt. I’d love to get back into my skinnies by Saturday so I’m up for the challenge.

Good luck to everyone fasting today

mickeymacca · 09/01/2019 08:57

Well done Borris I’m not weighing til Monday as I know that TOTM weight will throw the scales this week. I had a better day yesterday and finished just under 600. Feel great today. Hope your B2B goes well quacking. Great news bug hope his recovery is going well.

OohMrDarcy · 09/01/2019 09:18

Morning all

Congrats on the SV Borris!

43 congrats on nailing the FD, hope your headache is long gone now.

Am just debating my next FD..... I have tomorrow / Friday to choose from. Tomorrow not much on apart from MOT, working from home. Friday a busy day at a site but should keep my mind occupied easily....