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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 82: Diet 2 days, eat "normally" on 5 days and retrain your "normal" to what your body burns

985 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 07/12/2018 23:37

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Mosely's TDEE Calc - Exercisers:Use 1 activity level below what you think
Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
Losingthewill8 · 07/01/2019 20:16

bigchocfrenzy thank you.

How many hours should be between meals? And headaches, are they normal?

greenelephantscarf · 07/01/2019 20:25

headaches - are you drinking enough water?
I get a really bad headache if I don't have 2l liquids a day.
(name changed regulat btw)

BigChocFrenzy · 07/01/2019 20:32

losing meals should be at least 4 hours apart, but on FDs most folk find it easier to just have black coffee for breakfast and then only lunch & supper, or even just supper.

On NFDs, I suggest 3-4 meals

Headaches
If you are doing fast800, then headaches will be much worse, because you are getting used to low carb as well.
That is why I recommended ADF - the alternate days are NFDs when you can eat "normally", i.e. allowing starchy carbs

However, since you only have 10 days, I recommended that you cut out alcohol and any junk food,
i.e. no cake, biscuits, choc, sweets etc, or crisps, pizza, takeaway, deep-fried food ...

even with ordinary 5:2, or ADF, some people get headaches during the first couple of weeks.
To help avoid this, glug one teasp Marmite (10 cals) mid-morning and mid-afternoon.

Regard it as medicine, even if you dislike Marmite.
It replenishes salt & other minerals that your body may lack while it adapts to fasting - this is what causes headaches.
it also boost B vits, which is useful.

Also very important. drink plenty of water
Cut right down on fizzy drinks, even diet ones, as they don't seem as effective as water and may also raise insulin levels.
So start each day with a glass of water and keep drinking water through the day;
aim for 1.5 litres if you can, with any black tea, coffee etc in addition to this, not instead of.

Water is also important to enable more fat-burning

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 07/01/2019 20:33

Hi, green snap with the water advice ! 😀

OP posts:
snailhunter · 07/01/2019 20:53

Kitchen closed at around 610 - not bad for a crazy day! And up at 5.30 tomorrow for another one. Yuck.

Borris · 07/01/2019 21:29

I've come in at 630. Might have a cup of tea before bed. See you tomorrow snail Smile

JcHcks · 07/01/2019 21:38

All done at 520. Bit annoyed at the extra 20 but still proud of my first day 🙂

Racheyg · 07/01/2019 21:56

@BigChocFrenzy I'm new here....how the hell do you know so much? Your op was so informative.

I was going to do 5:2 but after readying 2 weeks of 800cals and then starting 5:2 I changed.

Can you check my day looks ok? (Last meal was 20.30 Sunday so had 16hrs fasting)
Breakfast/lunch @ 13.30 0% greek yogurt with berries (all weighed out) = 143 cals
6 corn cakes = 155cals
Dinner = homemade mixed bean chilli with broccoli with eat protein cheese and jalapeños
Finished this at 20.30

Drank over 2lts of water
3 black coffees
2 green teas.

Thanks x

Pumperthepumper · 07/01/2019 22:08

Finished at 490, nice work all Monday fasters 💪

Losingthewill8 · 07/01/2019 22:18

I drink over 2 litres of water every day, not counting herbal tea. I don't drink fizzy drinks at all.

I am not having alcohol, cakes, biscuits etc. Sticking to the 800, but I will def try the marmite tomorrow. The headache went after my naughty strawberry and 4 pecans; sounds a pathetic amount, but it shifted it.

Knowing that it's about 4 hours between meals helps greatly! Thank you

Hockneypool · 07/01/2019 23:11

Goodness me it’s been a busy day on this thread. Good tonhere people doing well and new folk joining too.

I have postponed todays Fast day - accepted a mince pie at my first meeting without thinking and then needed lunch!

Shall try again tomorrow!

RosaPalma · 07/01/2019 23:19

Well I ended the day at about 650 and while not ideal I will take it as a success. Night all.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 08/01/2019 07:16

Morning everyone, this thread is moving fast and I still haven't properly caught up! Nfd was fine yesterday, fd today although totm is imminent do will see how bad it gets. .. well done stir on loosing over Xmas, I haven't braved the scales yet!!

jc I wouldn't worry about 20cals I regularly come in around 550cals

goof luck fellow Tues fasters Smile

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 08/01/2019 07:17

Shocking spelling on that post.....

greenelephantscarf · 08/01/2019 07:21

checking in for a fd today.
currently zipping my large mug of tea (with a splash of milk as otherwise I get queazy in the morning). nothing to eat until dinner (german style kale stew).

good luck tuesday fasters!

OohMrDarcy · 08/01/2019 08:22

Morning all,

Checking in for my Tuesday FD alongside green and 43 by the looks, anyone else?
Good all planned, single egg omelette with sprinkle of mature cheese for flavour at lunch , and a chicken breast with loads of veggies for dinner - Can't wait!

Looks like yesterday was a busy one!

I'm getting there on my reward chart and getting excited for that now too! Am trying to plan it so that the rewards are relevant to how much I lose if that makes sense.

snailhunter · 08/01/2019 08:43

Well done rosa and jc! Fantastic first FDs. Cheers for that clarification bcf - only skimmed the Mosley piece. I shall carry on with the 500 cal FDs. On a train now having been up for nearly 4 hours already. Going to be a long day!

Calzone · 08/01/2019 08:48

Morning everyone.

Ok
New Year, new me.....

Except I don’t really know what I’m doing.

I like the control with fasting but I’m out of control when I’m eating.

Yesterday I fasted all day and had spicy chicken rice (slimming world style) and broccoli for dinner.
Went to the cinema with ds and had a diet cherry coke.

So today I should be eating but I’m scared that once I start, I won’t stop.

So if I write everything down it should help......

B.....overnight oats with apple, tangerine and banana

L....smoked salmon and scrambled eggs

D.....turkey meatballs with spaghetti and salad

2L water
Tea and coffee
Bath and bed

Does this sound ok?

TDEE is 1470 calories

mickeymacca · 08/01/2019 08:58

Well done everyone on your fast days yesterday. I didnt do as well as I’d hoped... case in just under 800 but as I’m doing a FD today I’m not too worried. I’ve worked out that my week point of the day is when we’re home from school run and the kids are having a snack so I need to get a hold of that really. Anyway onwards and upwards I’m heading to work now with just herbal teas and won’t be eating until 2pm so it will have been a nice long stretch from 5.30 last night when I had my last meal. All the best today everyone

BigChocFrenzy · 08/01/2019 09:25

Well done on a very good 1st FD, JC , rosa

Well done too, Borris, snail , pumper

Rachey That looks good
Next time, you could swap some of the corn cakes for raw veg

I'm a STEM PhD - not biology or medicine, but I'm used to analysing scientific research.
I found 5:2 back in 2013, when I was researching healthy aging and I found the world-leading researchers were recommending intermittent fasting.
I've read a great many studies, hence the peer-reviewed links in the OP science section

Many of us continue regular fasting for the probably health benefits, not just weight maintenance

I'm one of several maintainers here - it's great that some other oldhands pop in sometimes - and some more recent maintainers post regularly.
So we have accumulated a good knowledge base of practical tips over the years

Good luck, 43, green, MrD and any other Tuesday fasters.

calzone that looks a reasonably good meal plan, without any junk or alcohol
Except, if you have trouble stopping eating, I recommend you just have one piece of low sugar fruit with breakfast instead of 3 - e.g. have the apple with skin - and have say some unsalted almonds instead of the other 2

Also, check the portion size of your starchy carbs, so no more than 100g cooked weight of spaghetti

On other days, have some lentils / beans / peas because they help stabilise blood sugar, which will help control hunger & cravings

It's a good idea to roughly plan NFDs as you are doing and then stick to the plan
Keep up the good work of avoiding junk, especially the sugary kind,

Avoid too:
fruit juice, dried fruit, breakfast cereal - oats are good - deep fried food

Too many starchy carbs can cause bingeing, so move to wholegrain / low GI swaps,

e.g. brown / red rice instead of white
100% wholegrain / wholemeal / rye bread instead of white
quinoa
boiled or baked potato with skin instead of mash or fried

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 08/01/2019 09:26

mickey 800 is fine - are you doing a b2b ?

OP posts:
alltalknobaby · 08/01/2019 09:42

Reporting for duty! Had an okay NFD yesterday, not brilliant but no junk. Am raring to go for today's FD, still really feeling the need to rein it in after the Christmas period. Two pints of water and a cup of tea so far. Soup and a boiled egg for lunch and a small portion of homemade sausage casserole for tea later.

This thread is so busy and everyone is doing so well!

Stircrazyschoolmum · 08/01/2019 10:07

Wow! The thread has gone super busy! Welcome to all the newbies..

I started this WOL about 6 months ago and my advice to anyone doing it for the first time would be start by nailing the 2 FDs.. play around with the number and timing of meals, use MFP to check calories and see what days work best. B2B’s are not for everyone. If 500 is too low then start with 600, 800 or even 1000. On NFD eat exactly as before, no cutting food groups or overthinking. If it starts to feel like a diet then it’s not sustainable! Think long term not fast reduction.

Once FD’s feel okay then look at your NFDs.. no snacking, sensible alcohol, calculate your daily calorie need and don’t go over it. (MFP for a week if you want to be sure) Accept there will be days where you exceed.. this is part of life.. but don’t try to routinely under eat, again it becomes too diety. At this point you should start to see the weight steadily clicking off (ignore totm!) BCF is brilliant for helping pinpoint the cause of plateaus or increases.

I found this staged approach less overwhelming and more easy to commit to. It takes a while to build new habits and we are all human. It’s only personal opinion but articles demanding we give up whole food groups and radically reduce calories whilst taking up 5.a.m runs and daily gym visits feel unsustainable to mere mortals.

43 welcome back, I’m joining you today! I got to lunch time yesterday and having the kids home was simply too much! Loving the reward chart idea, I would never have thought of a house plant.. I tend to kill them!
Glad to hear you are so motivated alltalk I’m thinking casserole for tea too, I’m going to hold out till then if poss as small portions were never my strong point! Grin

Notreallyhappy · 08/01/2019 10:08

Checking in too...hi all whoever I missed coming back after holiday season. Hope it was all good.
FD #1 after Sunday mini..done the gym this morning too.
Anyone want 10 ton of rubbish kindly gifted by my mother in law for Christmas.. apparently 1 biscuit won't hurt, did she not listen when I gave them up 10 months ago & why 6 selection boxes 🙄😜. All still intact.
Hoping for a good day today..got 1 with man flu & for those that remember my OH had his dodgy mole removed yesterday so not happy bunny..stinging stitches.😟
Have fun & take care

BigChocFrenzy · 08/01/2019 10:27

NotReally A food bank would welcome those "helpful" gifts from your MIL
Better out of your house

Good luck today as well to stir, alltalk

OP posts: