5:2 Thread number 82: Diet 2 days, eat "normally" on 5 days and retrain your "normal" to what your body burns

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Mosely's TDEE Calc - Exercisers:Use 1 activity level below what you think
Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Mickey - going well so far. Poached egg on small slice of toast, satsuma and no cal jelly so 180 cals so far. Got a ww ready meal for tonight of 350 so will have room for a small yoghurt. That peanut butter should keep you full.

Welcome back Rosa. You’ll be losing in no time at all. But lots of achievable goals is the way to do it.

Pumper I don’t think the days matter - just what suits you.

Do you all find that you just constantly think about food? Not even food just crap! All I want is something sweet, chocolate, biscuits. I'm hoping after a few weeks it will go away...

Welcome, JC 🙂
Most people find FDs easier after a coupl of weeks.
Also, those 2 days without any crap whatsoever can often help NFDs too

For best results, work towards permanent change - because it was your old habits that put on the weight -
and keep 5:2 healthy habits on NFDs, even at weekends:

NHS alcohol limits, no snacking / grazing, sensible about treats, lots of water & veg, cut down on flavoured fizzy drinks

Try drinking tea & coffee without milk & sugar.
even diet sweeteners and diet drinks can raise insulin and change gut bacteria in many people

I drink plain herbal tea on FDs:
hibiscus or ginger & lemon or spearmint are my current favourites

Welcome back, Rosa
You'll soon get back in the fasting swing.
Once you near goal, we can suggest 5:2 maintenance choices

whatever weightloss method you use, 5:2 or any other, you need a defined maintenance plan afterwards, to avoid regain
Nearly everyone finds this, on every diet:

If you slip back into your old WOL, then you slip back to your old weight & waist

Pumper Monday & Thursday FDs are probbly the most popular combination on these threads,
if you are looking for fasting buddies.

re choice of day: it makes no difference during the week
except that if you choose a weekend FD, or even a Friday one, these are super-effective - they help avoid weekend sabotage / eating back the FD deficit

Hello,
Starting back after several years away and named changed since. Plus made big career changes which has given me more possibilities to have time to better take of myself.
So, how better to start back than with a fast day !

Also, JC it is much more filling to eat your calories on FDs, rather than drink them
Also boost protein to stay fuller and have masses of different veg

Avoid fruit juice, dried fruit, breakfast cereals and white bread on FDs

Avoid fruit on its own - only have as part of your meal

We - and Mosely - recommend no snacks between meals, on FDs and on NFDs - just eat meals.^
If you want treats or alcohol, have them as part of an NFD meal

Welcome back, Groovie

Sounds like you have already made brilliant changes in your life

Now you can concentrate more on self-care, especially weight, waist and improving health
You can also build up regular exercise, if you haven't already

Lots of science and advice on exercise in the OP on our 5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3

big that's great thanks very much. It surprises me about the no snacks in between meals cause I would of thought snacking in between would help curb any hunger pangs but I will try and give that a go (smile)

I also find if I don't eat anything for a long time I get a bad taste in my mouth and worry my breath smells, is this normal? Any ideas to overcome it?

Sorry another question. Am I able to have a chocolate bar or some biscuits on my nfd as long as its within my tdee calories

JC If you want a choc bar, have it as part of a meal, e.g. as your pud, NOT as a snack between meals

snacks were invented & pushed from around 1980 by Big Food to make money

Mosely states repeatedly, along with many scientists who have studied the effect of eating several times per day:
snacks are a major cause of the obesity crisis

Jc yes chocolate or biscuits are fine but should be attached to a meal as a pudding rather than on its own as a snack

Ooh cross post bcf (but at least we agreed)

Why we shouldn't snack

Even "healthy" ones like fruit or dipping veg - keep insulin raised and hence reduce the time in which your body can burn fat.

And the most common / tempting snacks are not even healthy

Also, human studies show that most people consume more calories in a 24-hour period if they snack,
because the reduction in meal size (if any) is usually less than the calories contained in all the snacks.

You can lose despite snacking, but it will be slower than without.
So, have any treats - snack food, lattes, alcohol, even fruit - as part of a meal.

If you add protein, a snack can even be converted to a mini-meal, if it replaces a meal
Broad definition of a snack is that it is less than 4 hrs away from a meal and contains protein and / or fat.

Snacks are only ok for those who need to gain weight, e.g. underweight DC - which very few are in the West

Constant snacking has caused a fundamental change for most of the population, compared to many millennia of evolution - almost no traditional eating culture includes snacking.

Each 24 hour day with snacks is now insulin-dominant instead of fasting-dominant, âs we lived for millenia, see graphs from Dr Jason Fung:

JC If your breath smells - often due to bacteria from food, or even gum disease - clean your teeth and / or use a minty mouthwash.

I also recommend this to stop you nibbling, especially after supper

The best time to burn fat is actually when you are asleep overnight
So don't shorten the overnight fasting period by eating very late at night or early morning, especially midnight feasts !

oops typo:

Broad definition of a snack is that it is less than 4 hrs away from a meal
(^ EVEN iF it contains protein and / or fat^,veg / fruit)

Doing well so far! Departed from my normal nothing till dinner rule as very intense work day and long commute home - have also walked 6 miles today - but just had a small Pret soup. Mosely is in the DM today and I see he now recommends 800 cals on FDs! But I’m not upping my cals unless BCF says it’s OK!

Omg, everyone is doing so well!

I am a complete newbie. I have read the information, but I think with the fast 800, some things may be a little different. I am going to try to do 800 for the next 10 days before I go away.

On Saturday I read MM info in the daily mail. I also joined a Facebook page. Here they state no sugar, bread, rice, potatoes, grains, fruit except berries in the first 2 weeks. My first day was yesterday, I was ok, kept to my 800, over 2 meals, finished eating at 6pm. Headache PM!

This morning I had a Pilates class, and knew if I didn't eat something that i would feel sick. I had greek yogurt, toasted almonds and berry breakfast, then spinach and pea soup lunch and I am planning chicken, with a little spice, cauliflower and onion mash and broccoli.

Here is my problem, my head felt like it was going to explode about 20 min ago! I ate a strawberry and 4 pecans. Have I messed up? I read NO snacks, just now. Has this wrecked my good work of today and yesterday?

But the headaches.......

Is it silly me even doing this before I go away when I will be off track, and lastly, I am going to friends Saturday night where I have no control over what I am cooked. Again, this is why I ask if it is daft to start now, or will I still see some results if I keep to 800cal the other days?

Thank you so much. You guys are inspirational!

snail The 800 FDs are only if you also do daily Mediteranean low carb, i.e. on NFDs too.

I've often suggested that for those coming off the BSD,
or who are insulin-resistant / preT2 but don't want full BSD

I've been calling it 5:2 BSD, as Mosely used to

In fact, his new book "the Fast 800" is basically taking this - which he alway gave as an alternative or maintenance for BSD - but combining it with a lot more recent science

I've just bought the Kindle and I find the extra studies are brought together in a useful way, but imo there is not a lot new there.

Welcome, Losingthewill 🙂

You are doing the full Fast800 with daily low carb, which is a VLCD and very tough.

It's probably NOT a great idea to do this 10 days before a holiday, because getting used to low carb takes a couple of weeks of discomfort
and you'll have to go through it again when you return

I recommend you do Bootcamp ADF (Alternate Day Fasting) until you go away
then decide when you return if you want to do Fast800, or "classic" 5:2 which is much gentler and is not low carb

ADF means every other day you have an FD of 500 cals (or 800 cals if you can't manage it for this quick trial)
and for the NFDs between you go Bootcamp, i.e. no booze or sweet junk, but allow yourself healthy carbs

Do NOT snack between meals on FDs or NFDs
As I posted above, snacks hinder weight loss

Eat meals, nothing between

With ADF before the hols, you can plan so that your saturday out is on an NFD - just avoid alcohol and sweet junk / pud on that day

Bigchocfrenzy - got it! Thank you.

So do you think I have totally messed up with that snack? 😩

Back on the wagon today. Very successfully lost 10kg and dropped 2 dress sizes in 2016, but this last 12 months have seen me creeping up a dress size again.

Aim this year to go back to a 12-14 instead of a 14-16 and loose 5-6kg.

Welcome back, hornetgirl
You did really well before, so you know how to get back to Happy Weight Range
This time, make sure you have a definite 5:2 maintenance plan, so you never have to lose more than a few holiday lb again.

Losing One snack won't ruin everything.
It would have just slowed down that one day a bit

Just move on and plan proper meals to keep you satisfied.

It is normal - or has been for millenia - to feel hungry for an hour or so before a meal.
It's fine & healthy. You won't topple over if you eat 3-4 meals per day, nothing between
Many maintainers, like me, find we prefer just 2-3 meals per day, to enjoy larger meals

Another Mosely tip in addition to boost fasting on NFDs too:

only eat within a certain time window, 12 or 10 hours or even just 8

This is called 12:12 / 14:10 / 16:8 meaning you have a daily fast of 12 / 14 / 16 hours in which you consume no calories, just water
e.g. for 14:10, you could eat between 10am and 8pm only, with no calories for the extended night time fast of 8pm to 10am

You can vary the system from day to day, say 14:10 during the week and 12:12 at the weekend

Teeth cleaned and kitchen closed on my FD:

B: mug of cocoa with a dash of cashew milk
Body Styling gym class

L: Salmon with umpteen veg, chopped melon

S: 2 tbsp yoghurt with mixed berries and an apple with skin
(more fruit than usual as the fridge was full of it)

Thanks very much for the welcome back and your motivating words, Big Fast Choc.
You are right that it’s good to be able to concentrate more on my self-care, my body’s appearance and health. I’ve recently started to get back into exercising too and I very much appreciate the links you’ve posted as well as all the information you’re sharing.😊

Many thanks to you and ...
Happy New Year to you and everyone else on the 5:2 Thread.😀