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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 81: Warning - "Big Choc will come smacking if you start snacking! "

971 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 04/10/2018 23:45

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Mosely's TDEE Calc - Exercisers:Use 1 activity level below what you think
Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

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Thread gallery
10
Clearskies99 · 11/10/2018 17:44

Checking in for new thread. Not kept up with everyone's progress sorry as life has been very very full on. Good and not so good news here: Very good news is I am no longer in the pre diabetic at risk zone - so 5;2, drastically reducing refined carbs/sugar, and losing 2 1/2 stone has served me well since April.

I am really pleased BUT have not been managing to continue losing weight the last few months. So the big worry is slipping back again (has happened before this time of year).

Am working hard to get back into the zone. I have a lot more weight to lose and I think what BCF has posted about set points really applies to me.

Hope everyone's having a good day, fasting or not

AnnieLewis · 11/10/2018 19:20

Thanks for all the tips, I've done a b2b today and think I've come in at about 600 which I'm so pleased with!

Clearskies that's amazing to have got yourself out of the ore diabetic zone! That's an amazing achievement!

Doing a NFD tomorrow, need to stay on track, worse when I can eat and have to try and avoid snacking!! (Will plan as advised by BCF)

Feel so much better already being on this thread!

snailhunter · 11/10/2018 19:28

That’s amazing, Clearskies. What a brilliant thing you have done for your health. You should be very proud and hopefully that feeling will help you not to fall back into old habits.

Kitchen closed for me on 450ish, hooray. And I seem to have walked seven miles, which is probably why I am knackered!

Borris · 11/10/2018 20:28

I gave blood today. I had a naughty snack afterwards - the orange clubs were whispering eat me eat me. But I’m sure I must be expending some calories replacing all those red blood cells Wink

TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 11/10/2018 20:49

Clearskies, that’s amazing! Well done!

Fasted despite tummy bug earlier in the week - am on 489 but might make a last cuppa (decaf) in a minute. I know I’m supposed to have left it another few days, but I’m going to spend the next week with in-laws and will be in holiday mode with lots of extra drink and puddings etc, so I really wanted to ward off some of the damage!

WhiteWinterWitch · 11/10/2018 22:16

Kitchen closed here too. 501!! God omelettes taste amazing on a fd!! In bed now with my wind down cuppa.

clearskies that is a fantastic achievement. My dad is diabetic so it's something that spurs me on when i think I'm going off the rails with it all. I'm not great at checking in either but when i do I definitely find it helps me stay in track a bit better. We can do thisWink

I'm in awe Annie b2b fds, that's fantastic going. It's something id like to try, I'm just a bit scared I'll pass out on day 2!!

Thanks BCF for the advice as always, so much easier when you see a good plan written down. Right like snail im off to bed, totally wiped out now. Spin Class really put me through the paces. Good luck to the Friday fasters. Will check in again over the weekend (that can usually be danger time!)

WhiteWinterWitch · 11/10/2018 22:19

Oh and good on ya borris definitely giving blood means chocolate is a must have after (think I've actually seen that written somewhere offical!!Grin)

BigChocFrenzy · 11/10/2018 23:56

Congratulations, clear Thanks
Brilliant achievement to get yourself out of the pre-diabetic zone !

My recommendation to resume weight loss is a full week on mfp
Did you do this before, when you got stuck ?

Many people with a lot to lose can lose the first big chunk even while eating back some of the FD deficit
However, that weight loss has meant your TDEE is now automatically lower, so you won't progress further until you retrain yourself to eat within TDEE

Good habits only take you so far:
now you actually need to quantify for a week, to see where the issue is - hidden calorie bombs, misread portion size, too many treats, too much of calorie dense hhealthy foods etc
Omce you identify the issue(s) then you can tackle them

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BigChocFrenzy · 12/10/2018 00:01

Well done for donating blood, Borris Thanks
A snack afterwards is medicinal, not forbidden

Well done on your FD, winter 1 cal over < wags finger Grin > Couldn't be more exact !

I hope you'll get away with it, cheddar
It's safer to watch the NFDs and reduce them all to say 400-500 below TDEE until next week
You really don't want ILs and tum problems together

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quackingduck222 · 12/10/2018 08:00

Snail - Hope your FD went well.

BCF - No totally ashamed to say it’s been 6 weeks since I did any exercise. Plan to get some in Saturday and Sunday.

Clarskies - It’s great to see you back. Fantastic news on the pre diabetes that’s such good news. How long did that take to reverse that result?
My advice to you for next week would be to plan your FDs in advance and get on MFP for a week or two. I really do think it helps keep you focused.

Annie- Well done on your B2B that’s fantastic. Follow the no snacking for a bit and it will soon become your new normal.

Snail - Well done on your FD. Seven miles that’s loads.

Cheddar- You’ve sneaked a FD in there, that’s completely unsustainable you want to do some damage limitation. Are you feeling better now?

WineWinter - Well done on your FD and spin class. I’d say try a B2B when you feel ready as it’s not as bad as you think. A lot of posters now do them also we’ve noticed a lot of hardcore new posters do them. Going back a year ago it was quite uncommon but this lot are really hardcore.

Anyone fasting today?

HLBug · 12/10/2018 08:47

Me! Or at least a mini...will see how I get on. Had a chippy tea last night (I know...) and I've been dying of thirst ever since. Bleugh.

BigChocFrenzy · 12/10/2018 09:48

God luck, bug, duck

I'm just changing into shorts before going to work: it*s 26C today and all weekend 😁

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Stircrazyschoolmum · 12/10/2018 12:01

borris clear and pop well done on your SV.

snail I like the idea of being booze free buddies! 😁
annie well done on your b2b, it’s quite nice to get it all out the way sometimes!

Ugh.. I’ve gotten a head cold this week, sneezing my head off. Decided to bin yesterday’s FD in favour of lots of chicken soup and fruit and veg. It’s my tough mudder tomorrow (rubbish timing to get ill) so I’m cutting myself some slack until next Mon. On a positive note I’ve no inclination to drink whatsoever which will automatically save me calories.

Happy fast Friday to those participating. xx

Boysmomma · 12/10/2018 13:53

Hi all, day 1 of b2b today. Absolutely starved this morning but held off until lunch, feeling much better now! Omelette planned for dinner, yum! I pulled out a dress I haven't worn in a few years from the back of the wardrobe. It's a nice classic lbd, I will be in it for Christmas. It's been about 5 years since it fit me perfectly, 3 since it fit at all Blush

@BCF Norman may well be evil, but he gets results I'm sure you'll forgive him Grin

@cheddar I hope your tum is feeling better!

@Pop well done on your SV and NSV my clothes are screaming for help. Hopefully in a few weeks I can have something similar, hopefully!

@white well done on your FD and the classes!

@Borris the choc is a must, one of the perks of donating!

@Clear that's absolutely amazing you must be thrilled!

@Anne well done on your b2b, I love the feeling afterwards.

Good luck Friday fasters!

snailhunter · 12/10/2018 14:44

Borris Coincidentally I got my ten donations pin from the blood transfusion people today! Was a lovely surprise. I feel very smug.

stir Look after yourself! Quite right to skip the FD if you feel rubbish. I'm oddly enough not missing booze at all this week. Might change later though!

BigChocFrenzy · 12/10/2018 15:19

Get well soon, Stir Thanks
Don't fast until you feel well enough

My fav recipe to zap a cold is to heat up the chicken soup with 40 cloves of garlic (literally)
It will also keep away any pesky visitors Wink

Well done on your b2b, Annie

Good luck on the Dry October, snail, stir and anyone else joining that

duck How about Shred, 20 minutes to get you back in the exercise track
Or something else quick, rather than the thought of a long session putting you off
You could do Fat Blasts - just 2-5 mins on 3-5 days per week, at home or in the park or gym, see* 5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 OPP

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Larasshadow · 12/10/2018 19:54

Weigh in day today and I've lost 1lb :) (lost 3lb since I started 5:2 2 weeks ago).
A few more lbs and I'll be under 25 BMI .. That's mainly what I'm aiming for as well as fitting back into my size 12s.

BigChocFrenzy · 12/10/2018 22:41

Well done on your SV, Lara
Stay focused and you should soon nail the healthy BMI milestone

Waist is usually the key to fitting into clothes, at least the bottom half.
Measure waist at the narrowest point usually 2" above the navel (for men, measure at the navel itself)
First aim is waist / height < 0.5

Many folk, once they teach their original goal on 5:2, find they can comfortably go further
You might want to aim for the middle of the healthy range, depending on your frame size and muscle

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Boysmomma · 13/10/2018 08:27

Morning all! Kitchen closed at 486 last night. Day 2 of b2b now today Grin looking forward to a good day

Clearskies99 · 13/10/2018 09:31

Well done on your FD and walking snail

Get well soon stir cheddar

Sounds like it's going really well boys

How lovely for you to still be in hot sunshine BCF - enjoy! Just come back from my UK morning walk soaked through

Thanks for all the positive comments about no longer being in the T2D at risk zone. I was diagnosed 6 months ago quacking but I wouldn't be surprised if it only took until August to improve my blood sugars as I was totally in the 5:2 zone until then, no snacking, no refined carbs, brisk daily walks,, losing weight steadily, etc.

Thnaks for the advice BCF. I know what I need to do and what works for me, just have to keep the focus to stick with it. One big challenge I've got is that my working week is VERY physically demanding so I'm experimenting with a bit more to eat on FDs (including a v small amount of complex carbs) as otherwise huge carb cravings were kicking in the next day. That's worked well this week and I've lost 2 1/2 lbs of the 4 lbs i've lost/gained for weeks. Refined carbs and especially sugar it works best if I completely avoid, but I also seem to really need to get sufficient complex carbs. If I go too low on complex carbs the cravings kick in, especially on long day's of physical work.

I have to confess BCF I never ever calorie count (apart from knowing the calories for my FD staples). I don't have modern gadgetry to MFP with and I just cannot have that relationship with food. I know it works for lots of people but it's not for me. I know where the problems lie for me - mainly in doing all the things that help keep in contact with a true sense of appetite and fullness and avoiding all the things that lead to cravings and constant hunger (snacking and refined carbs i'm looking at you!).

Very glad I posted again and thanks again for all the encouragement

Have a good weekend everyone! Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 13/10/2018 12:46

Well done on your FD, Boys

And well done on your SV, clear
Small / moderate amounts of complex carbs on FDs / NFDs are fine for most folk - it is the heavily processed carbs and sugar that is the problem, along with alcohol.

If you find further loss v slow, then you need to find some way of reducing calories on NFDs - your TDEE is lower now and the "easier" bodyfat is gone

I know many people don't weant to mfp regularly, but just 1 week of effort there - no sepcial gadgets needed other than kitchen scales and internet access - will show if you have hidden calorie bombs or just too large portion sizes of some things

Some healthy foods - e.g. olive oil, nuts, avocado - usually need to be consumed very sparingly for those who struggle to lose

Also, Mosely advises to keep fruit to no more than 2 portions per day, which shouldn't both be high-sugar tropical fruits like mango or pineapple
and no fruit juice or dried fruit

Good luck, Flick on forming your new healthy longterm habits Smile

You can have non-food treats:
new lipstick, nail colour, music, video
have a new hairdo, nails done, massage
new exercise class ....

It is important to remember that our body changes over the years inside too, not just the outside,
but also how it processes / burns / stores calories & sugar / booze especially

it's not only that TDEE becomes lower over the years; so does your tolerance for "food-like substances" as Michael Pollan calls them

So, the junky "treats" you could get away with in your teens and 20s would likely put on fat in your 30s
and what you get away with in your 30s won't work when you are perimenopausal
... and most women find they need to make major changes during an after the menopause

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BigChocFrenzy · 13/10/2018 12:48

This is why what used to work to lose weight for you, doesn't work any more, as you get older.

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BigChocFrenzy · 13/10/2018 12:51

A baking hot day in my shorts and T yesterday, duck
I hope you are not still shivering - exercise will help that !

Off for another lovely walk along the sunny Rhine now - 27C today, 26C tomorrow Smileand a warm week ahead

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Borris · 13/10/2018 20:02

That sounds lovely bcf. Wet and windy here 🙃. Well done fasters. Nfd for me. I’ve eatsn what I planned for today but still feel hungry. Think I might have an options hot choc and hope that does the trick. I’m really conscious of not eating back the deficit

BigChocFrenzy · 13/10/2018 22:31

Well done, Borris
Soon you'll get used to your new habits
You've probably learned that reducing added sugar, junk, booze all help to avoid cravings

btw, my pump class was roasting !

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