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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 81: Warning - "Big Choc will come smacking if you start snacking! "

971 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 04/10/2018 23:45

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Mosely's TDEE Calc - Exercisers:Use 1 activity level below what you think
Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 08/10/2018 14:33

thanks bcf I have been mostly mfp-ing but have been trying to wean myself off it slightly (except for fd's) in order to make it more of a natural way of life, but maybe I am over eating on my nfd's Sad I don't want to have to mfp for the REST OF MY LIFE - but maybe i need to concede that I have to Shock

thanks for the kick up the bum!!! Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 08/10/2018 14:38

I'm not sure if this is inspiration, need, but for best progress

On FDs:

  • No alcohol or junk, especially sugary treats
  • Don't eat back exercise cals If you want to allow for exercise, do so on NFDs only, via Calc TDEEE*

On NFDs, keep 5:2 healthy habits, even at weekends:

.NHS alcohol limits
.no snacking / grazing between meals
.sensible about sugary treats & crisps
.lots of water & veg
.cut down on flavoured fizzy drinks

Only have "treats" as part of an NFD meal, never as a snack between meals.
Even "healthy" snacks keep insulin raised; hence they hinder fat-burning, increase overall daily hunger & calories.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 08/10/2018 14:44

43 Most folk who use mfp just need a week or 2 to identify the areas to work on
Then mfp long enough to be confident you have changed your longterm habits

Don't feel bad about it: Smile
Many folk have got used to eating more than their body can burn, because high-cal food & drink are pushed at us 24/7 - and because business cleverly persuades us to consume more of everything

You need to retrain your "normal" until it becomes automatic
This will enable you, once you reach goal, to avoid regain. It's a vital part of the maintenance plan.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 08/10/2018 14:47

Borris can tell you of the shocks that mfp gave her,
e.g. calories in breakfast pastries, hidden portion size on packets
Cereal, porridge, pasta, rice, bread are the classic culprits re portion size

OP posts:
Ta1kinpeace · 08/10/2018 14:48

Had a different weekend - first one since both kids left home.

DH and I walked into town for dinner and then walked home via a micro brewery - 9 miles round trip offset the food and drink a bit.

Saturday the weather was foul so we pottered and then he made Moussaka out of home grown aubergines - nom nom

Sunday we cycled up the river to have a big Sunday lunch - about 12 miles round trip
ended the weekend feeling like we had eaten well but not at all over filled.

Fasting today - the usual omelette for supper tonight should keep the holiday gain shifting.

BigChocFrenzy · 08/10/2018 15:04

Crikey, the nest must seem very empty, TiP ... and too quiet !
It's an excellent idea to take all those leisurely trips you didn't often do before

OP posts:
Stircrazyschoolmum · 08/10/2018 18:32

Hi all

Kitchen closing at around 700.. a very unsatisfactory FD.. in a foul mood.. mainly because I’m craving wine - day 8 of sober October and it’s lost its novelty! Also grumpy as I got a ready meal for tea (350) as I thought it would save me time and it was the most tasteless pile of stodge I’ve eaten for months.. I wish I’d stuck to my regular salad and grilled squid rings. To top it all its totm! :-(

43 I get its frustrating but remember weight is just a number.. you bought new jeans and everyone is noticing.. the you of 6 months ago would be giving you a high five!

I hope all the other fasters have had a better day than me! xx

snailhunter · 08/10/2018 20:00

Kitchen closed after a day of lunatic running around, so not hard to be distracted! Around 450 so enough for small unsweetened cocoa if I get the urge to dive into the lemon crunch cake I made yesterday, which is now regarding me sadly from the worktop. Tomorrow!

BigChocFrenzy · 08/10/2018 20:47

Well done on your FDs, stir, snail

Stir 700 is fine on totm;
shame about the ready meal - some are really tasty

That craving for wine means it's a really good idea to have a dry month - it's probably psychological, your way of winding down, but on NFDs, try say a mug of cocoa instead,

Think of Dry October as a platform to kick the dependency and form healthier drinking habits.
In November, always stick to NHS guidelines even at weekends and continue this through the runup to Christmas.

OP posts:
PopGoesTheWeaz · 08/10/2018 21:23

plugging away with my b2b. Haven't gotten my focus back and feel a cold/flu coming on and so just haven't got the energy to think about diet. So I'm just considering this my mini-maintenance phase. Never mind that I still have 5 kilos left till happy weight...

WhiteWinterWitch · 08/10/2018 21:35

Hi Folks, well that's the first fd of the week done. 603. Had a crappy day at work(people related) so I'm happy to have not dived into the big cake a colleague had brought in for tea this morning!! In bed now with a mug of decaff coffee to help me nod off & have a massive pot of soup made for lunch for the next few days. Omelette is my Thursday fd saviour, so tasty. Anyway hope everyone else managed a good fd. snail hope the car got on ok. stir I find i need to up my cals around totm too so try not to be disappointed you did good Wink back on thursday. Night

BigChocFrenzy · 08/10/2018 22:41

Well done on your FD, witch and on resisting cake on a crappy work day

Pop If you've a bad cold, I suggest you do miniFDs and maybe not b2b.
To compensate - and also to support your immune system - this week try to cut out alcohol, sweet treats and other carby junk.
Nourishing stews with plenty of beans and veg would be ideal on NFDs

Cutting out junk also helps you get back in the fasting swing, as does cutting out all snacks.

I hope you feel better soon Thanks

OP posts:
HLBug · 08/10/2018 22:44

FD for me tomorrow - anyone care to join me?

Borris · 09/10/2018 00:06

I’m doing b2b d2 tomorrow bug so I’m with you.
D1 been easy today. It’s funny how some days fly by and you don’t think about food and then others you’re constantly clock watching thinking I need to wait a bit longer before eating

Needmorewine · 09/10/2018 08:03

First FD done yesterday, as suggested I aimed for 800 cals was very doable. Going to try for 1200 today (TDEE is 1600) but NO junk / snacking again which is my downfall, all I did while pregnant was eating the carby / sugary stuff to combat the awful morning sickness ! Have a good day everyone.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 09/10/2018 08:15

morning everyone,

thanks bcf for the tips, I don't ever have alcohol or junk on FDs (how can you on 500 cals!) and I'm mostly never snacking (although it has crept back in the last couple of weekends) so I will correct this...

stir thank you for the lovely words, they made me smile and you are right, 6 months ago i was 29lbs heavier so I have to remember that Grin hope your mood lifted i'd be the same with the thought of no wine for a month and your FD sounds okay all things considered!!

Hope you feel better soon pop and well done to white and need on your FDs

bug I'm fasting today also, just got to the office and had a skinny vanilla latte to see me through to a lunch of chicken salad, probably a mushroom omelette and salad for tea... hope you have a good FD Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 09/10/2018 08:16

Good luck, Tuesday fasters.

Need I recommend you aim for around TDEE most NFDs - these are supposed to be basically maintenance days
Otherwise, it is too much like dieting every day
Let yourself relax on NFDs

OP posts:
quackingduck222 · 09/10/2018 08:17

43 - Well done on your b2b. Sounds like your at a sticky weight point. Honestly just carry on doing what your doing at it will shift, I promise you that. I was getting this every stone bracket at the same point and took a while but once it goes you will be on your way again. It’s a PITA at the time tho. I agree about 4:3, it’s never worked for me as I never lost on the 3rd day. The alternative is 5:2 and a mini 800-1000. You’ve done great if people are committed on your losses but if you want to go lower ignore them as people do get funny about weight.

Boys - That’s weird as it was pizza that made me feel bloody awful a few weeks ago. Hope you have a good week.

Snail - Thanks for the link, I’ve never made bread before.

NeedMore - Reducing sugar on NFD May really help. It really settled my sugar cravings when I started and set me up for good habits long term. I would recommend it.

43 - I know what your saving with MFP. I didn’t want to count either but after a while you learn it so there becomes a point you only need to log new food IYSWIM.
But that may depend if your eating a lot of different meals, where as I do repeat the same meals most weeks.

TiP sounds like you had a wonderful weekend.

StirCrazy- Hate it when FD food is disappointing that’s rubbish. Crossing my fingers for you getting a TOTM whoosh soon.

Snail - Fab job on your FD and resisting your cake calling your name.

Pop - Sorry to hear that. Make sure you get yourself well before worrying about that. You’ve done fantastic and these things things are set to try us.

Well done on nailing your FD wineWinter.

Good luck for today Bug & Borris and everyone else fasting

BigChocFrenzy · 09/10/2018 08:31

Well done on your FD Borris

43 As stir said, look how far you have come and what you have achieved Star
Those around you have noticed how well you have done

I frequently remind about FDs, just in case - because a few folk in the past have indeed tried to squeeze in a glass of wine, crisps, or a bar of choc - and just cut the healthy stuff !
Rather more have say a couple of choc biscuits or a mini choc bar though and that can slow things down

Lots of people have found they can lose initially with quite indulgent NFDs, but need to tighten up to lose the remainder
So don't worry; it's quite usual. You sound determined and with a few tweaks you can resume progress to goal

duck mfp is really like training wheels:
once people have learned new habits and automatically eat within TDEE on NFDs, then they can put the training wheels in the garage - in case they need them again - and ride the bike without Smile

OP posts:
TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 09/10/2018 09:25

Just checking into new thread. Pretty crappy couple of days - think I have caught DS’ bug! Horrible tummy cramps and many trips to the loo. I am feeling slightly more alive today but still not well, so no fasting for me today. I determinedly ate white carbs yesterday in an attempt to ballast my tummy but it didn’t work, so I’m going to gird my loins and trek (all of 500 yards) to the shop and buy chicken soup for lunch.

snailhunter · 09/10/2018 10:37

43 you have done brilliantly! Don't beat yourself up - losing 29lb is amazing.

SV for me today - down 2lb to 9 st 13, hooray. I'm going to be very interested to see if phase 2 of fasting gets me past my plateau of 9st 10lb. Looking at my MFP record, phase 1 started on Monday 8 Jan at 10st 13lbs. On Friday 11 May I hit 9st 10lbs and pretty much stayed there, despite 5:2. Stopped fasting on August 3 for holiday and have now come back to it. I'm wondering whether it will help to have had that period where I stopped - sort of letting body get used to new weight and then carrying on losing.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 09/10/2018 10:52

thanks quacking its good to know with perseverance I can get past this point... and its interesting what you say about 4:3 and not loosing any more, I think for me it would make it feel more like a diet and I rebel against that feeling Grin

bcf i'm thinking given my failure at going mfp-free I might always need training wheels!!! but maybe that's fine and just how I have to do this??

cheddar hope you feel better soon, a few on this thread have had a tummy bug Sad hope the soup helps

thanks snail and wow, excellent SV, I reckon you'll soon smash that 9st 10lb mark Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 09/10/2018 10:52

Well done on your SV, snail

It is true that at certain points, which may be set points, your body may pause for quite some time, to consolidate it loss, before losing more.

That does get blocked however, if people return to their old WOE and put on a lot of weight.
Those like you who have basically maintained are in a very good position to lose a few extra lb, if it suits their individual body

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 09/10/2018 10:59

43 We don't have "failure" here Wink
You just need to return to the training wheels for a while until new habits are properly ingrained

especially the "no snacking" - or I come smacking ! Grin

Sorry to hear that, cheddar I hope you & DS recover v soon Thanks

As I've posted to others with tum bug, don't fast until at least 5 days after all symptoms have gone,
because your gut will still be recovering - fasting may irritate it and cause symptoms to reappear.

Instead, in the interim, concentrate on nourishing food to support your system: no junk, no sweet crap, no booze.
Also avoid very spicy food and fruit juice, as the acid can irrititate.

OP posts:
Stircrazyschoolmum · 09/10/2018 11:41

Morning! Sorry to hear we still have so many poorly people, get well soon all of you and hang in there Tuesday fasters!

A quick line to say I’m feeling far more cheerful today and quite proud of myself for not caving last night and demolishing the ice cream/bottle of wine I was craving. BCF you are right it’s a warning sign and it’s quite scary how quickly alcohol can become ‘medicinal’, I think this break is doing me good and resetting my system before the Xmas blowout festivities. (Only joking, we have a sporty holiday booked for Xmas!)

43 please don’t hit me for saying this (ducks) but is there anything you could switch your lattes to? I had to train myself to like Americanos (with a dash of milk) as even the skinny lattes were adding up. It might make no difference but could be worth the experiment?

snail well done on your SV I think you have a point with the body needing time to rest and adjust. I’m definitely approaching a sticky point so it will be interesting to see how it plays out.

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