5:2 Thread number 81: Warning - "Big Choc will come smacking if you start snacking! "

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Mosely's TDEE Calc - Exercisers:Use 1 activity level below what you think
Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Morning all

Haven’t posted for a while and have lost my focus a bit with a return to old habits. But have caught up with the thread and have made a plan. No snacking and MFP for a week or too to get me back on track. And to keep reading and posting here. I want to crack the 9.5 barrier and also feel so good when I eat a bit less.

Sorry to hear about all the bugs and poorly tummies. Hope everyone is on the mend.

Clear skyies well done getting out of the preT2 zone. It’s a major achievement.

BCF very envious of your sunny temperatures but heading to The Netherlands/ German border to visit DC1 tomorrow and the weather looks good.

Thanks hockney. I am really chuffed and will feel even more so once I'm steadily losing weight again. Good luck with your plan for getting back on track. No snacking makes all the difference for me too.

Well done borris - hope the hot choc did the trick. Here's to not eating back the deficit on NFDs!

Thanks BCF I'm feeling much more optimistic and back on track - no snacking, moderate complex carb portions, NO refined carbs, lots of water. I'm virtually teetotal so no calories 'wasted' there, fruit I'm literally only having the occasional apple or blueberries with a meal. I know what I need to eat in terms of quantities, the challenge is to stick with it and not overeat if I'm stressed/tired so doing all I can to manage that aspect too. Hence fasting today instead of Monday as tomorrow is a long, exhausting day so think today will work better.

Lucky you still enjoying heat and sunshine bcf. Would prefer sun but am still enjoying my daily wet walks

have a good day everyone, keep drinking water!

Welcome back, hockney
You'll soon be back in the fasting swing and back on course to goal

Ah, that's good, clear
You already know what to do, but life keeps getting in the way, especially tiredness
You alcohol abstemiousness is a great help, as so many struggle with alcohol.

You might feel less tired if you allowed yourself a daily portion of lower carb fruit, e.g. berries or an apple or pear (with skins)
These are healthy low cal additions that often improve energy levels

If you can, try to go to bed an hour earlier, at least until you've caught up on the last few hears sleep !
Also, schedule a siesta on free afternoons, e.g. Sunday

Lack of sleep, even on its own, can block weight loss / cause gain,
because it keeps the stress hormone cortisol permanently raised, which tends to increase fat storage around the abdomen.

Anyone fasting tomorrow? I’m doing my regular mon-tues b2b. Planning a poached egg on toast for lunch (no butter) poss with a no cal jelly. And then a veg stir fry with rice noodles for dinner.

That's a good menu, Borris Enjoy

Hello everyone. I’m skulking back to the thread after falling off the wagon and off the thread for several months! I’m trying to commit to my first fd in ages next week.

I wondered whether anyone uses a Fitbit? I dug mine out a few weeks ago after a long hiatus and I’m wondering how accurate the calorie expenditure is - it’s a charge HR version so measures heart rate. It gives me an estimated BMR of the same as MM’s TDEE calculator but based on my average steps of 10k per day it ups this to approximately 2k calories TDEE which equates to ‘moderately active’ on the MM calculator. Does anyone else have any experience? Thanks.

Evening all
Me - I'm fasting tomorrow. Have had a busy weekend but am actually looking forward to that fasting feeling of being hungry in a good way!

I feel like I've got back in the zone for FDs but still have a lot of work to do on NFDs. Got a few events coming up between now and Christmas and just want to feel a bit healthier and less back pain etc.

Out of interest are a lot of you non drinkers? I've been toying with the idea for a while now and have done some reading around alcohol. (Other than the obvious calorie issue)

Annie I’m a once a fortnight and holidays sort of drinker.

I'm fasting today, too, Annie, Borris

B: cocoa with cashew milk
L: frilled salmon with big mixed salad, lemon, balsamic vinegar
Evening pump class
S: Optifast veg soup
Plenty of walks in the warm Rhine sunshine still

Good luck to us all 

Annie I've always been a very light drinker, even at uni, never even been tipsy:
A small glass of wine every week or even every month - but that's just personal preference, not re weight

For most folk, no effect on weight (or health) if you have one medium glass on say 4 nights a week

• important thing with alcohol is to keep within the daily NHS limits too, so do not save up your weekly dose to have on 1-2 nights

Those who find it very hard to keep to NHS limits may have an issue - and it is very likely to affect weight too - so there I recommend a dry month to start with and then decide if they can drink within limits.

Welcome back, upenup

Fitbit is useful as an A-B comparison, to see if your exercie is increasing / decreasing, but like all gadgets, tends to overestimate calories burned
Problem with most gadgets is that they ignore the fact that we burn calories just being alive / awake, so their "extra" calories is wrong.

Mosely says to take one exercise level lower than you think
If you do 10k steps daily, but no other exercise, I'd count that as "lightly active" going by what has worked for people on past threads

For FDs, never eat back calories
For NFDs, set "lightly active" and use Mosely's TDEE Calc - some other calcs can overestimate by a few hundred !

However, what really can help stay within TDEE, often without mfp is keeping
5:2 healthy habits on NFDs, even at weekends:

NHS alcohol limits, no snacking / grazing, sensible about treats, lots of water & veg, cut down on flavoured fizzy drinks

Um, "frilled" salmon looks fun ... but I meant "grilled" !

Bug - Don’t beat yourself up, did you enjoy your chippy tea?

StirCrazy- Sort to hear that, hoping your tough murder went well. Despite the awful weather we’ve been having.

Boys - Well done on your B2B, Congratulations on your dress victory that’s the best.

BCF - The insentive is there as I’ve signed upto another run challenge all be it 25 miles over the month rather than 50 but I’ve not done anything yet but that stops today as I am definitely 100% doing some today.

Lara - Well done on your loss. Not long until you will be under 25, that’s a huge milestone.

Clearskies - That is absolutely amazing, I’ve seen quite a lot of people of the fb 5:2 page say that. I read posts but never comment.
Well not having MFP is clearly working for you, what you’ve been doing has reversed your diagnosis and that is superb.

Hockney- Your in the right place now, that sounds like a fantastic plan to get you back in the zone.

Borris- Good luck for your B2B.

OpenMyEyes - Hopefully you find your answer, I’m on Apple Watch rather than Fitbit but I do find it encouraging trying to get my steps in.

Annie - I’m pretty much a non drinker off the back of 5:2 it was BCFs posts about having to burn alcohol before burning fat that did it. I’ve actually only drank on 4 occasions this year 2 times were half pints, 1 time a can and the other time 2 cans. It’s become my new normal.

After a over indulgent Friday and Saturday I was prepared to have a good week with no crap to make up for that as I couldn’t fasten my jeans. but after taking a 2nd FD yesterday I’m now back in target range. Quite shocked actually 7 weeks no exercise and 0.6 lbs away from target. Crazy but I will take that.

Hope everyone has a great week, and good luck for all the Monday fasters and B2Bers

morning everyone.... been AWOL for a few days and not been great food wise, but i decided to bite the bullet and jumped on the scales yesterday morning to find I've STS, I was expecting a gain hopefully it won't still catch up with me had a good old heart to heart with DH over the weekend who is well versed in my complicated emotional eating habits and messed up relationship with food and feel much better about everything so today marks a fresh start for me!

NFD today, got a chicken salad and a lemon curd yogurt for lunch, not sure yet what dinner will be but it will involve lots of roasted veg which needs using up maybe some chicken sausages?? I AM GOING TO EAT TO TDEE AND NO MORE TODAY FD planned for tomorrow and Thursday this week.

Will go back and read the last couple of pages of the thread over lunch... but just wanted to 'check in' so to speak

Good luck all you Monday fasters

Well done on sts, 43
You may have developed better habits re snacking & portion size than you realised, so even going off plan is probably not the same as your old WOE

That's good you're in Happy Weight Range, duck
Exercise is important for health, but for most people plays only a minor part in weight loss, unless they exercise regularly AND don't eat back the calories

Exercise also improves body composition, the % of muscle vs fat, even in the absence of overall weight loss.

So, I reommend getting back in the swing, but it doesn't have to be the same old - in fact cross-training with different kinds of exercise is benefical for your body.
What about a weekly Shred, maybe when it's a pain going outside ?

Morning all! FD for me today. I can feel that it's going to be a difficult one: internet down, dog acting crazy, not much sleep last night, and I have run out of teabags!

I'm just going to sneak back in and hide at the back

I am so rubbish at staying in control. And yet, I am managing to stay off the fags so why can't I stop this ridiculous food habit?!

Fast day today. Haven't weighed myself for a week (too scared of what number will be displayed) and decided this morning that I may ditch the scales altogether and just go by how my clothes are fitting.
Not eaten anything yet but have had 2l of water. I downloaded a 'drink water' app last night and based on my weight it said I should be drinking 3.4litres a day

I'm off to catch up on the thread now

yes I'm hoping that's the case bcf

oh no snail I could cope with all of that except the no teabags!!!

Sorry to hear you are struggling clutter I know how you feel, but you can handle this - good luck on your FD, keep posting here, it does help

Fasting today. Trying to push through until 4 for first meal as have PT tonight.

Starving right now. Where's the marmite!!

Solidarity Monday fasters.

No need to hide on here, clutter We're all pals 

If you're worried, maybe weigh yourself 1st thing tomorrow after the FD.
So you have a new baseline
If you weigh every 3 weeks say, that would avoid blips and you you can watch the scales go down

Is your issue FDs or NFDs ?

Good luck, clutter, badger, snail

clutter I'm sure I saw a (Mosley?) study on tv earlier this year about willpower - IIRC we actually have limited amounts of willpower, not an infinite supply that will last all day. So maybe all your willpower is going on giving up the fags just now? Try not to beat yourself up - is there a way you can plan your meals the day before which will mean you don't have to use any willpower on food at all? That way you're not testing your willpower supply - it can all just go towards giving up the fags.

I have no idea what's going on over here in maintenance land. I'm still in happy weight zone (8st 12lb this morning) but hormones are driving me crazy mid month and at TOTM just now. My Friday fast last week was "postponed" but I have been doing at least 16:8 most days which I think is definitely helping even if FDs are less frequent at the moment. It's my birthday next weekend and the celebrations are starting early with meals out with different friends / family over the week ahead. I'm trying to just chill...happy weight zone is good - I'm just worried (perhaps unnecessarily) about slipping up and not realising until drastic action is required!

Thanks, forty

Badger - hope you made it until 4 for your first meal and good luck with the PT

BigChoc - thank you. I feel like a bit of a wally because I'm constantly slinking back into the group

I'm not sure what the solution is re scales. I'll do as you suggest though and weigh tomorrow and then maybe monthly after that.

Re FD/NFDs - if I can get passed 8am without eating, FDs are pretty successful and almost enjoyable. NFDs are a bit of a disaster but I figure I'd still be in deficit (by my standards) so must be Doug some good. However, I've just given myself two weeks off fasting, for no reason whatsoever .

My brain needs some major re-wiring where food is concerned. I just wish it was as simple as flicking a switch.

Anyway, I've just had my tea and have 700ml of water left to drink (2.7litres drunk). I'm taking bets on how many trips to the loo I'll have tonight - ds thinks 3!!

HLBug - thanks for that...I'll have a google and see if I can find anything online. What helps me is reading/hearing lots of little tips and tricks. Giving up the fags has actually been far easier than I'd expected. My cravings generally hit when I wouldn't be able to smoke anyway. Also, my ability to resist food was just as crap when I was smoking tbh

Enjoy your birthday celebrations

@Clutterfreeintraining I made it to 3.50, had my planned 200 cal meal then had a MAJOR booboo when feeding the kids and accidentally ate 6 frankfurters straight from the pack. I think they are 100cals each. So no dinner for me and have gone 300 cals over FD. QUITE annoyed with myself

Doh!! So frustrating!!

Bug - have a lovely birthday. I’m sure it’s ok to have some meals out. Just cut back on the other days and get right back on the FDs the next week

Clutter - a monthly weigh in sounds like it might work for you. Though tbf I don’t really care what I weigh, it’s what I look like/how my clothes fit that bother me. I do weigh weekly atm though as I reckon a small loss isn’t instantly notable on clothes.

Badger - oh no. What a waste of calories. Never mind. Tomorrow’s a new day etc. I thought I’d messed up fd today as someone made me a posh dolce gusto coffee pod. But when I googled it was actually only 40 cals so no damage done.

My veg stir fry was very nice and filling

Kitchen closed at 517. Teabags were bought. And used! Quite a tough afternoon/early evening as husband working late so I had to be in the kitchen all evening. But am pleased with myself as really thought I would crack today. Looking forward to early night. I’m shattered.