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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 81: Warning - "Big Choc will come smacking if you start snacking! "

971 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 04/10/2018 23:45

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Mosely's TDEE Calc - Exercisers:Use 1 activity level below what you think
Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
snailhunter · 09/10/2018 11:50

stir Good to hear you are feeling better! I am doing sober October kind of by accident - husband has had to give up all caffeine and alcohol for health reasons and I thought I'd join him (with the alcohol, that is) because I also noticed that when my mum was ill I was starting to have a sneaky glass of wine or G&T during the week to relax, and that's a bit of a warning sign - I don't want to be reliant on any kind of food or drink to feel relaxed! Lots of other things I can do! So let's be no-booze buddies.

Boysmomma · 09/10/2018 12:37

@stir that's amazing! Well done! Good luck with the rest of teh month Grin

@quaking it did alright, I think my body is sending loud enough signals, I cannot handle this food!

@cheddar I hope you're feeling better! There is definitely something going around, a few kids in DS1's class have it, praying it doesn't come into the house!

Kitchen closed at 1109 last night, quite pleased with that! I've found a particularly difficult walk for lunch while at work, my aim is to get to the top of the painfully steep hill without losing breath. It will take awhile.

Good luck Tuesday fasters!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 09/10/2018 13:08

No need to duck stir Grin I take your point, but at around 100 calories (with sugar free syrup) I'm quite happy to spend that on them especially as I don't have breakfast and I'd never have more than one in a day (too bloody expensive!!) and I don't have them everyday

well done on resisting yesterday, alcohol can so easily become a crutch and a coping mechanism, when my mum died I ended up drinking at least half a bottle of wine every evening, which started to become nearly a bottle - I now mostly only have a drink on a sat and sun, but you are right, its scary how quickly these things become a habit.

Well done boys

bcf the snacking habit thing is one I think I can easily get to grips with again as it really does make such a difference to coping with 5:2 and I never snack in the week, its only just started creeping in on the weekends Shock

Chicken salad eaten and I've a rumble in my belly still, lots of water and coffee this afternoon I predict! Grin how are all the other tues fasters getting on??

HLBug · 09/10/2018 19:40

Kitchen closed at 570ish calories. Milky coffees during the day then chicken with ciabatta, cheese and salad for dinner. I do love the feeling after a FD - I need to remember this feeling at the start of the day / the nights before!!

BigChocFrenzy · 09/10/2018 20:10

Well done, bug - and now you'll remember this great feeling next FD 

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Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 09/10/2018 21:37

Well done bug

fd done here on about 555cals, pretty happy with that... off for an early night now Smile

HLBug · 09/10/2018 22:01

High five 43, another FD done Halo

Borris · 09/10/2018 22:44

Fist bumps fasters. I finished b2b d2 on 700 which I hope is ok as yesterday was about 550. For some reason I found yesterday way easier than today?

Really hoping to below 66.9 tomorrow which is my lowest since starting 5:2. Also thinking of doing a mini on Friday this week and next as I’m off to a party next Saturday and want to look (and more importantly feel!!) fabulous 😀

BigChocFrenzy · 10/10/2018 06:58

Well done on your FDs, bug, borris
Good luck, Wednesday fasters Smile

borris Many folk find it easier to split the cals as you did, with more on the 2nd day
It makes sense, because you start FD2 already fasted

Incredible summer weather still, here - maybe we'll have a horrid long snowy winter, to compensate ....
This week is 23-25C, but feels hotter - I've been relaxing in shorts & cropped trews, baking outside in the sunny afternoons on the Rhine Smile
Being October, the mornings are cooler, or I'd wear shorts
26C this weekend - so I'll wear them then

< apologies if it's a cold, rainy October for any fasters >

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Needmorewine · 10/10/2018 07:11

Morning all
Going to attempt second FD today on about 700 cals, am tired after a bit of a disturbed night with DD but onwards and downwards. Very hungry this morning but going to have s couple of coffees. Enjoying reading everyone’s stories & meal plans.

PopGoesTheWeaz · 10/10/2018 08:49

Woo woo. Scales going the right direction again! .5kg down from last week. Maybe that is the encouragement I need to get back my mythical focus Smile.

Plus my skirt, which I've already taken in once, wants to be taken in again. Hanging dangerously low on my hips.
Trying to figure out what was different from this week Vs others. Could just be that I've been on the edge of poorly but I also think I may have been carb loading. Also, I think my b2b were coming in at closer to 650 and I wonder if for me I need to stay closer to 500 as I've traditionally done. Gut tell me nfd are probably more the issue but I only have FD data to work with Grin

quackingduck222 · 10/10/2018 08:58

Cheddar - oh no not you aswell. I hope you make a speedy recovery again soon.

Well done on your loss snail. Are you looking to go under your lowest?

43 - yes I think personally 3 FDs is too much. I do think we all need the freedom of the other days to also learn what to eat and what works for us and that sets us up for the future.

StirCrazy- Glad you didn’t cave. Good luck to you and snail.

Boys - For me in future if I do have another pizza I will choose a smaller one . It’s still hard sometimes with eyes bigger than my belly.

Bug - Well done on your FD. It really is a mind over matter thing isn’t it. I regularly argue with myself thinking FD today, then the other part of me says but I don’t want too.

Well done Borris on your B2B, that’s so strange you found your lower calorie day easier. Good luck for your weigh in.

BCF - Our weather has been strange the last couple of days start the day off wearing a winter coat and boots and the afternoon sunglasses it’s really unpredictable.

NeedMoreWine - Good luck for your FD. Lots of coffees and a couple of big glasses of water will help.

Pop well done on your SV. Also on your inch loss, that fantastic.

I’m debating over a FD today or tomorrow but will probably choose tomorrow as Thursdays are usually my day.

Good luck to everyone fasting today.

Borris · 10/10/2018 09:00

Good luck needmorewine. You can do it!
Pop 0.5kg is fantastic Grin

Weigh in this am 66.8kg so I am below 66.9kg (my 5:2 low, but only just!). 0.2kg loss this week which isn’t much but I had a slightly indulgent weekend with visitors so will try to have a really healthy week this week

Needmorewine · 10/10/2018 10:09

Ahh thanks for the support boris and quacking . In Costa with a black coffee and a water feeling very virtuous and ignoring the pastries !!!! Good luck everyone fasting today. Well done on weight loss pop. When is the best time to weigh weekly ? Morning after second fast day of the week was what I used to do before ? Although I am a bit worried that as I’m not doing proper 500 days it won’t have worked , but I don’t think at the mo I’ll be able to function very easily on less than about 700. Ps I’m actually no longer hungry - miracle !!!

PopGoesTheWeaz · 10/10/2018 10:22

Well done borris.

Quacking, I know what you mean re pizza. IT is a favourite of mine but I have trouble now eating as much as I used to. I've also got murmers of my parent's drilling into me that I need to finish everything on my plate boucning around my head so it's hard to stop even when I want to. But last time I got a pizza I only ate about half and wished I'd had the courage to order a kids sized one which would have been perfect for me. I never know if that's allowed...

BigChocFrenzy · 10/10/2018 10:53

Good luck, need and 700-900 FDs look sensible for you, at least for the first few weeks
Just avoid grabbing any sweet junk.
Boiled eggs, cooked chicken breast, sticks of carrot/celery/cucumber (without dip) are useful to keep handy in the frig, just in case.

I'm fasting too.
As you like menus:

B: 2 x hibiscus tea
L: grilled salmon fillet and big mixed salad with lemon & balsamic
Evening training: advanced lifting 1hr
S: veg soup (Optifast)

Well done on your SV, pop
Yes, it is far more likely to be your NFDs - an extra 100-150 cals on FDs would only very slightly slow things down.

As for others, if you find your loss is very slow, I recommend a week on mfp as a reality check on NFDs;
almost everyone who does this - after 3+ weeks of sts -
is shocked by how much they consume and also by the "recommended" portion sizes of some of their common foods

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 10/10/2018 10:58

pop Sometimes parents didn't know best:
being trained to clear your plate is one example of old advice that is not appropriate for our obesogenic society.

ANother 5:2 motto is "stop eating when no longer hungry" - an important habit for the longterm

When out, I have never found it a problem to order a kid's size of something stodgy & greasy like that, then have a big salad on the side, with vinaigrette

You are the customer: your tum, your choice.

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AnnieLewis · 10/10/2018 18:54

Hello, I've done another FD today after a disastrous two days since my last one. I'm really struggling to balance the NFD's and particularly bad this week as had an evening out on Monday and ended up drinking far too much, so Tuesday was carb loaded hangover central. Am not proud but figured just to move on and get another FD done today. Found today not too bad. Had a Shakshuka variation for lunch and haven't felt too hungry since. Am on about 550 cals.

What are your tips to get back in the zone for NFDs as well as FDs?

You all seem to be doing really well, lots of sv's.. Smile

AnnieLewis · 10/10/2018 18:59

Sorry BCF just read your tips for success in your last post! Will get myself on to mfp everyday!

I see you are using the optifast Soups? Are they better than some of the low cal cupasoups etc? Sounds interesting!

BigChocFrenzy · 10/10/2018 20:35

Annie I just tried the Optifast soups because they were what Prof Taylor's study used - that's the original one on which Mosely's BSD was based
They are designed to supply nutrients longterm, with added vitamins & minerals
They are high protein - 20g - only 200 cals each, very easy to make - just add water.
I found them very satisfying for a low cal soup, but YMMV

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 10/10/2018 20:46

Annie as well as sticking to the 5:2 healthy habits on NFDs, plan say 4 meals for the day in advance - you don't have to mfp or measure them of you don't want, but just scribble a menu B, L, T, D

If that day you want alcohol, include 1 glass only and choose which meal
or if you want a sweet treat - don't have both the samer day - decide which meal & have it as pud

... and stick to the plan, no snacks, no extras not on the menu

Reading your posts, I suggest you join the others on Dry October, to crack the NFD issue
It sounds like alcohol is not just piling on the calories, but also leading you to nibbling and junk

When you drink alcohol, your body stops fat-burning for hours, until your liver has post-processed all the toxic by products
So alcohol slows down progress more than you would expect for its calories

Also, try to cut back on sweet crap - have one portion on say 2-3 NFDs
High sugar spikes insulin which not only increases hunger, but also switches the body from fat-burnoing to fat-storage

Extra calories from sugar, like those alcohol, are preferentially stored as fat around the mid-section, just where you don't want it.

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WhiteWinterWitch · 11/10/2018 07:43

Morning folks, anyone else fasting today? have Pilates class planned for lunchtime & spinning class planned for dinner time so that should keep me occupied! Lots & lots of Brew though to get me through until I can eat my mushroom omelette tonight. Good luck to anyone else having a fd

quackingduck222 · 11/10/2018 07:58

Borris- Congratulations on your SV. You’re lowest weight is a huge milestone. Fantastic stuff.

NeedMoreWine - some posters weigh weekly. Usually the day of the week they first started. Some weigh after 2nd FD and some daily. Honestly I wouldn’t worry that your not doing 500 cals. Better to start higher and be more manageable and work your way down then starting low and struggling. Your doing fantastic.

Pop - I know what you mean I also wasn’t allowed to leave the table until my meal was finished and it really does cause issues even now. It’s fine when out to order a smaller portion I occasionally eat of the senior menu my DD does too as she’s past child’s but the adults meals can be massive. Also don’t be afraid to ask your meal to be boxed to be taken home they are happy to do this.

Annie- I would recommend MFP as it’s a real eye opener if you have alcohol log that aswell. for me I felt part of the learning curve of the journey. I used to eat not only big portions but absolute crap with no veg. I needed to change NFDs to become the new normal so gradual changes were made that now equal quite big changes for example less carbs and more veg on your plate. Swaps from chips to carrot fries, mash to Swede and carrot it was easier doing it gradually rather than changing everything at once.

snailhunter · 11/10/2018 07:59

Me! On my way to a meeting, so nice busy morning. Marinated tuna steak planned for dinner! Already looking forward to it. I’m into green tea right now so that will be my go-to brew.

BigChocFrenzy · 11/10/2018 11:28

Congrats on your SV and lowest 5:2 milestone, Borris
Now to boldly go where no Borris has gone before Wink

Good luck, snail, witch
You both have excellent programs arranged

Any exercise planned for today, Duck ?

After the Wednesday evening Advanced Lifting class (with Norman, the evil trainer ! Looks like Terminator's big brother), Thursday is always a light day for me:
an HIIT & abs class, but it's only 30 mins

I had my usual morning walk along the sunny Rhine, though (it's hardly rained since early June)

Need If you are monitoring weight, the important thing is to weigh consistently, under identical conditions

.Choose your day(s) / week(s)
. then use the same scales in the same place on a hard, level surface - not carpet
. ideally 1st thing in the morning before drinking or eating anything, but after loo
. and naked
. Switch on the scales and count to 3, so they have time to balance, then step on - don't jump
. Keep still and don't lean to the side or back / front

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