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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 81: Warning - "Big Choc will come smacking if you start snacking! "

971 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 04/10/2018 23:45

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Mosely's TDEE Calc - Exercisers:Use 1 activity level below what you think
Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 04/12/2018 21:34

Glad to hear you had a nice meal bcf
I'm one of those awkward sods that doesn't like marmite and I don't eat red meat so no bovril for me either!! Anyway headache has passed so I'm off for an early night as suggested by faron

Welcome back snail.... that sounds awful and likely to be perimenopause bloat, a couple of good fds and I'm sure you'll be back in your happy weight Smile

Night all...

Fleabag123 · 04/12/2018 21:38

Hello all.

Some great updates on here, everyone is doing so well in the festive run up. Glad your meal was both delicious and injury free @BCF

Must confess I skipped a FD on Thursday as I wasn’t feeling well and then had a bit of a boozy weekend Shock

Back on it today and coming in around 550 cals.
2nd FD will be Thursday.

Haven’t weighed myself again, I really should to. Might measure tomorrow morning.
Hope today’s fasters are hanging in there

TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 04/12/2018 21:49

Well done, fleabag and faron and 43!

Your meal out sounds lovely, BigChoc.

FD done at 485 - cod, chorizo and broccoli, plus 4 cups of tea. It was definitely easier today than last Thursday’s FD - weird how some you fly through and others you really struggle with!

Borris · 04/12/2018 23:08

I’ve come in at 505. Met up with some friends and managed to resist delicious chocolate Yule log and clotted cream. Just had a cup of tea 😇

Cheddar - your cod and chorizo sounds nice. Is it home made? How much chorizo do you use. I was Shock at the calories of chorizo when I did mfp do have pretty much cut it out - used to love pasta, chorizo, pesto and cheese on top - even on a NFD.

BigChocFrenzy · 04/12/2018 23:31

Poor snail All those periods in one go is one of the joys I remember of peri 😬
That naturally leaves you weak and probably retaining water.

So, plenty of sleep plus nutritious food - I recommend no junk or booze for a couple of weeks - to help the former
and a couple of FDs should hopefully deal with the latter

Fleabag You made the correct decision not to fast if you didn't feel well enough

However, for future reference, if you skip an FD, try to be disciplined over the NFDs that week, especially the following weekend.

Well done on your FDs, cheddar, Borris

43 1 teasp Marmite here is to replenish salt & minerals and hence help avoid headaches
So ...... regard it as medicine, hold your nose, stick spoon in mouth, swallow Marmite, drink a glass of water

If you absolutely can't do even Medicinal Marmite - Alternatives:

  • 1 tbsp unsweetened soy sauce - check it has no added sugar / glucose and yes it is a tbsp not a teasp
  • Miso soup - check for a pkt that has no more than about 35 cals per portion

@Everybody Check you are NOT using the low salt version of Marmite or other yeats products for this

  • it defeats the purpose on FDs !
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 04/12/2018 23:32

yeats yeast

OP posts:
Farontothemaddingcrowd · 05/12/2018 06:13

I weighed in at 10.13 after fast day 2. That's 3lb down. Can't believe it, as I've eaten and drunk loads at the weekend.

TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 05/12/2018 08:06

Yay for a new scale bracket, faron!

Borris, yes, it’s homemade - I only use a tiny bit of chorizo for flavour. I manage by only having one meal - thus can use slightly more calories than I would if I had had lunch too.

Disappointment this morning: got on scales and they said 10.11.6, which would be a loss of 4lbs. I was delighted but skeptical - moved the scales and they said 10.13. Moved them again and discovered pool of water underneath them, mopped it up and re-weighed at 11.2. FFS. So gain of 1lb! But it is TOTM so I was expecting that. Bloody scales messing with my head.

quackingduck222 · 05/12/2018 08:09

43 - Well done on your fast, written down that seems a good amount of food calorie wise.

BlushNot only is there a typo in my last post, it should say heating not hearing. But I meant water / squash not booze. Shock
I’m not a lush honest.

Cheddar - Don’t beat yourself up. Do you find sometimes the more you eat the more you want? Or some days you just need a bit extra. Well done on your FD yesterday.

NotReally - Well done on your B2B, a 19 hour fast is blinking fantastic.

BCF - I hope you enjoy your Xmas meal tonight. Definitely take that lift. Just seen your back home safe phew, are you going in for a FD today?

Faron - That’s fantastic, really does make you accountable doesn’t it. And well done on your SV, 3lbs is a lot. Goes to show how amazing this way of life really is.

Borris - Hope your FD went well.

Snail - Good to see you back, but sorry to hear of your troubles. Hope you can book in with the docs and checked out as that sounds so awful for you.
Good luck for your FD

Flea - It’s best to skip a FD if your not feeling great, but glad your back and hope you have a great week too.

I’m going in for a FD today, overindulged in some mince pies last night, there gone now so I will hold off buying more until nearer Xmas. Rasping thirst again this morning so will fill up on very weak squash until tea time.

harriethoyle · 05/12/2018 08:45

Morning all, I decided against doing b2b fast day today and tomorrow - I'm in the middle of a really difficult bit of work and am exhausted and I finda b2b fast really messes up my sleep on nighr 2... so today I'm doing a mini fd and then I'll do a proper one tomorrow.

Off the booze til Friday too (although I tell you now, I'll be exceeding my nhs limits Friday night. Got my funnel to hand!). Next week is slightly less intense work-wise so aiming for Monday and Wednesday.

Good luck to today's full fasters!

Fleabag123 · 05/12/2018 09:00

Thank you BCF and you’re absolutely right. It was a very social weekend (unusual for me!) and I should have been more restrained.

My scales are doing very bizarre things and didn’t have time this morning to fiddle with them - genuinely don’t think it’s possible to put on 5kg in a week Hmm?!! I didn’t have that much booze!

Snail - I sympathise. That sounds exhausting. Hope you are feeling better soon.

Well done everyone on successful FDs yesterday Very low cal counts.
Surprisingly I have no appetite today post FD and DP has just informed me he’s out tonight so think I’ll go for a b2b. Got a busy day so that should distract me nicely.

I’ve also discovered that I prefer black coffee! Revelation. Think I’ll stick to it for NFD too

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 05/12/2018 09:02

well done fleabag cheddar and borris, an extra pat on the back for borris for resisting yule log Shock

thanks bcf I will look into soy as I can't stomach marmite

Excellent SV faron
Grrrr cheddar although I'm sure once TOTM has buggered off you'll see a loss

hmmm okay quacking we believe you Wink

Good luck on your mini harriet

NFD here today and its gloomy and wet and cold so something comforting for lunch, will see what inspires me at the shops!!!

Have a good day everyone

BigChocFrenzy · 05/12/2018 11:25

Well done on your SV, Faron and welcome to the 10 stone somethings
Most folk have a good initial loss, so you may find later that you need to be reasonably sensible on weekends to keep losing

Don't worry, cheddar, fleabag moving the scales often changes results a bit, even without a pool of water.

fleabag your scales were lying before and / or lying now !

cheddar that lb may really be an sts, if the scales were on a little water before, or a slightly different position

Anyway, at totm a gain of 1lb is quite small, as you are probably temporarily retaining water
I advise avoiding scales around totm, because the results are often meaningless and can be unnecessarily discouraging.

Stay focused on healthy 5:2 habits, avoid the totm munchies and don't weigh again until the FD following the end of totm.

Enjoy your NFD, 43

Good luck, duck on your FD
< hovering drone 🛰 applies zoom lens, in case of booze claiming to be squash 🤥 😆>

Good luck on your miniFD, harriet and to any other fasters

OP posts:
snailhunter · 05/12/2018 11:57

Thank you all for all the nice sympathy! I really did feel abnormally tired for the whole month and didn't do any running, either - just didn't have the time what with work craziness. Hopefully I'll have a few period-free weeks in which to recover. I was thinking about going to the doc but I did read online that this is normal for perimenopause...hmmm. I'll have a think about it. I do have a bit of a nagging worry at the back of my mind as my mum's recent health probs were caused by ovarian cysts, so I guess it wouldn't hurt to get checked out.

Well, I'm feeling fine at noon, nothing except a coffee and a green tea. And I've kicked off my next half marathon training with a nice easy 30 min run. I like to have something to train for as it keeps me motivated so I'm doing a three runs a week plan with the half in March - entirely do-able for winter, I reckon.

BigChocFrenzy · 05/12/2018 17:05

snail I had periods every 2 weeks or so in peri,
but I would still recommend you get checked out by a doc, just in case anything needs fixing early on.

It's good you feel capable to resume a gentle run, but pllease don't attempt longer runs if you aren't sure you aare up to it.
Half-marathons and up are so taxing on the heart muscles and immune system that a 2-week recovery period afterwards is recommended even for those who are fit, who complete the race and feel OK

OP posts:
snailhunter · 05/12/2018 18:58

Yep, I think I will give docs a call, just to be sure. I have every intention of being very careful with my running - the training programme I follow is very good for building up stamina slowly, and I'm not bothered about hitting a PB at all - just like to have a target.

Anyway, kitchen is closing here on around 550, I think - have found it very easy today and feel great!

emcla · 05/12/2018 18:59

Hi all. Feeling miserable here with a cold. Felt wrecked all day with no energy and ate lots of biscuits! Was hoping to do a fd tomorrow.

harriethoyle · 05/12/2018 20:21

@emcla sometimes it's better just to get better than try and fail to fast, IYSWIM... I had planned b2b today and tomorrow but when I woke up this morning I was SO tired and it was pissing it down I converted today to a miniFD instead and feel lots better for it! So wait and see how you feel when you wake up perhaps.

Fleabag123 · 05/12/2018 20:44

Oh dear, lots of illness about. Hope you both feel better soon @harriet and @emcla.

I have concluded the scales were dodgy from being on a different area of the floor. Will try again tomorrow.

B2B has been ok so far! Wasn’t hungry at all today so just had water and black coffee till about 5pm then accidentally ate a Ferrero Rocher 🙈 forgive me @BCF. I’ve had a generous veg heavy dinner and have enough left for some fruit and yogurt

harriethoyle · 05/12/2018 20:48

I'm not ill @flea just knackerooned by a horrendous work project (6am starts, 10pm finishes, worked ALLLLL day Sat and all day and night Sun!) but thank you for the thought though! Excellent fasting too :-)

harriethoyle · 05/12/2018 20:49

Also if your scales aren't digital moving them often knocks them out of balance, so that might be it

Fleabag123 · 05/12/2018 20:57

Gosh that is a brutal work schedule! Hope you get a break soon.
DP keeps “tidying” the scales away Grin so they are being moved more than I’d like ...

BigChocFrenzy · 05/12/2018 21:10

I hope that nasty cold goes soon, emcla 💐

Good luck for tomorrow,
but if you don't feel in the mood then either, it is better to heave a healthy TLC day, to support your immune system,
i.e. proper meals with reasonably healthy food BUT without biscuits or any other sugary junk or booze - which can actually extend illnesses

Well done on your miniFD, harriet

With your currently dreadful work schedule, I suggest you try the alternate fasting system of 3 weekly minis,
e.g. Mon+Wed+Fri

Well done on your FD, snail

fleabag My drones 🛰 overlook the occasional FD choc,
but go into assassination mode 🏹 if they detect FD booze,
or exceeding NHS booze limits on NFDs, even weekends

How to Weigh

If you are monitoring weight, the important thing is to weigh consistently, under identical conditions:

. If your scales are old, then the springs may have stretched, to give inaccurate & inconsistent results.
. If they are digital, tests have shown that the results may also change significantly if the batteries are even only half-charged, so try replacing them.
. Use scales in the same place on a hard, level surface - not carpet
. ideally 1st thing in the morning before drinking or eating anything, but after loo
. and weigh yourself naked
. Switch on the scales and count to 3, so they have time to balance, then step on - don't jump
. Keep still and don't lean to the side or back / front

OP posts:
emcla · 05/12/2018 22:21

Thanks for all your helpful comments and support. Going to hit the hay now.

HLBug · 05/12/2018 22:34

Oh crikey BCF I can't believe you chose to go back to that restaurant - the food really must be good!! Glad to hear you safely enjoyed the evening Smile

My FD yesterday went well - finished on about 570 I think. I had such a lazy day - a lot of lounging in bed watching Netflix with the electric blanket on! Today, however, has been a festive feast kind of day. Thinking of a Mini tomorrow - I'm away for the weekend child free with DH and a lot of lovely meals out have already been planned to celebrate a rather big bday (his, not mine).

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