5:2 Thread No. 77: AARGH ! Frustrated with the grind of daily dieting ? Eat normal food 5 days a week, fast 2 days

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Eugh I'm hungry. I have packed myself a little pot of celery and cucumber if I really need it. I'll be busier this afternoon though so that's ok.

I should exercise really. I used to and was quite toned but I really struggle with the idea of getting up half an hour earlier each morning to do it

Morning all! Good to see people keepin' on. It really is worth MFPing for a week or so, cheshire - it can make you feel much more in control if you do it for a short period.

STS on my weigh-in last Friday - well, lost half a pound but I don't count those, just the whole numbers. So progress is as expected, around half a pound a week and just three pounds from goal of 9st 7lb.

I usually have Mon as an FD but have had the most insanely tiring weekend - five hours helping to prep for a huge sports-related school event I help to organise on Saturday, then spent two hours shifting a literal, actual tonne of gravel from front drive to back garden. Then back to school on the Sunday for the actual event - was there all day marshalling, selling, tidying, shifting tables. Woke up this morning absolutely drained and with a massive headache. So I reckon I've earned a day off...

And my plantar fascitis has gone, hooray - was a good idea stopping all running for a month. Now I can resume half-marathon training, which I did with a lovely slow run this morning through the beautiful countryside.

By the way, BCF, did you see this research on how alternate day fasting could be harmful? Would love to know your views. It's alternate day fasting which to be honest sounds very different and far more risky than what we do, and was done on rats, not humans, so I think I'd need a lot more research to be convinced.
www.theguardian.com/society/2018/may/20/fasting-diets-raise-risk-of-diabetes

Oh, and here's some responses to the study - quite a few people agreeing that this is not really enough to go on, I see. I note that the paper has not been published, so no peer review.
www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-reaction-to-unpublished-poster-presentation-on-diabetes-and-fasting-as-presented-at-the-european-society-of-endocrinology-annual-meeting-ece-2018/

Welcome, Akira
Starting at 700 sounds a gentle way in.

You don't need exercise to lose weight, as even for very active people - for women at least - it is 90% diet and 10% exercise
Your TDEE will obviously be lower than the theoretical value for your weight & height, so progress will probably be slower than average
However, take it slowly and you can get there in your own time

Yes, I saw it, snail

Fasting has been successfully used to reverse T2 in humans

Lazy, sloppy, bad science to use experiments on rats

• which differ in highly relevant ways to humans and other primates - when there have been a large number of human studies on IF already, showing insulin metabolism is improved

as well as at least 10s of 1000s of humans who have been doing intermittent fasting for several years

Rats are just very cheap and easily available - but totally inappropriate to use for such studies - as well as cruel to starve them.

Reply by a researcher at the conference where this oaper was presented:

Dr Nicola Guess, Lecturer in Nutritional Sciences at King’s College London, said:

http://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-reaction-to-unpublished-poster-presentation-on-diabetes-and-fasting-as-presented-at-the-european-society-of-endocrinology-annual-meeting-ece-2018/

“Firstly, it’s important to bear in mind there are important differences between rodents and humans – particularly with regard to diet.

For example, a high fat diet causes insulin resistance in rats but it does not appear to in humans.

“The exact method is unclear from the abstract, but if the rats were fasted for one day, this is equivalent to an approximately 3 to 4 week fast in humans!
< and the ras were alternating one day total fast, one day gorging >

So it’s not applicable to the 24-hour or 48-hour fasts practised by humans on common fasting diets.

hi all checking in for my weekly fast day.

1 a week is NOT enough for maintenance for me, I am realising as am at the top of my heavy weight this morning, and 9 pounds heavier than my lowest achieved on 5:2. So if I am going to get back down I need to do two. Will try this week but with a brand new puppy waking me up at 4.45am every day that might not happen this week.

Usual menu, water crackers, prawn omelette and salad etc

The fact that rubbish isn't even peer- reviewed says a lot
There were attempts to discredit low carbing too, via rat studies - knowing full well that high-fat diets are bad for rats, but not for people.

Fasting is supported by a large body of peer-reviewed science, by leading scientists in the fields of T2 and of healthy aging who actually used human subjects in their trials
Leading researchers into T2, like prize-winning Prof Taylor of Newcastle who produced the fasting protocol on which the BSD is based, which can actually reverse T2.

Hello, just a quick one to say I’ve weighed in and it’s 8lbs on since end of March not surprised but hopeful I can knock that on the head pretty quick. Half way through my easeing in 1st fast day at 800 and going alright, need to drink a bit more water but feeling ok at the moment.
Good luck to any fasters today and hello to any newbies.

Blossom Those of us who are naturally greedy wish to continue eating over TDEE often need 2 FDs
at least those of us whose bods are not as young as they were

smiled To tighten bingo wings I recommend tricep dips on a step or bench.
You can start with bent legs, but build up to straight legs asap, as this is more effective
Work up to say 3 sets of 10 reps, 2-3 times per week and you should look quite toned there.

Just checking in. I was busy over the weekend so a lot to catch up on. A FD today and it’s going well so far. I’m watching the dcs eat lunch and surviving! The weekend was a complete write off. I didn’t snack but I hate to think how many calories I consumed yesterday. I did manage a 6 mile run but I don’t think that would have been enough. Anyway I’m not going to beat myself up. I have my game face on and i’m determined to be good this week.

Welcome back, daisy
That regain should soon be gone after a few weeks back on 5:2

I recommend when you return to goal that you keep a definite maintenance program, e.g. 6:1, or retrain habits permanently so that you always average within TDEE over a week.
That way you never need regain again.

I'm going to do those triceps dips too.i have quite good pecs but definite flabby bingo bits.

And I'm going for a b2b. Gulp.

Cheers for that response, bcf. Yes, it does seem very at odds with all the other evidence in favour of fasting!

cheshire I believe you can bloody well get on and do this - get your head in the game. MFP for a week and NO SNACKING! Now, take that as a big hug and kick up the arse from me.

quacking well done on overcoming your blip.

lamb that's really interesting that 6:1 isn't working for maintenance for you. I'm just starting my maintenance plan so I've got no idea what will work for me long term, but 2x 800 FDs has worked ok the last couple of weeks. Maybe 6:1 in the future, but I do like relaxing with food TDEE some days so we'll jus need to see.

I'm fasting today and it's a glorious sunny day here.

HL don't take my experience as standard - I can usually maintain for long periods on 6:1 but at the higher end of my happy weight and not recently because I have been indulging in far too much wine/crisps/nuts etc.

Unfortunately a long long long way from maintenance BCF but when I've cracked the gain I'll have made good inroads.
Good luck with the b2b IAm

Thanks bigchoc

bug If you eat around TDEE on NFDs, then 6:1 or even 13:1 is usually sufficient for maintenance
However, I recommend 5:2 with 800 FDs for the first month of maintenance, for those who have lost more than say a stone

cheshire You have received excellent tough love from bug

Hello all,

Just checking in on a FD. Saving all my calories for eggs on whole meal toast with avocado for tea. Cannot wait until 1730!

I exceeded my tdee yesterday (probably quite considerably) but with proper food, not junk or alcohol. Hoping it doesn't have too much of an effect!
I do usually enter everything religiously into MFP and probably will for another month at least until I really understand what my tdee looks like.

Good luck to everyone Fasting. Also agree that a non peer reviewed paper is hardly worth discussing!

Hi all. My second b2b fast day was rudely curtailed by an unmissable family pub dinner on Friday night but I stuck to 1 pint and no dessert, confessed all to MFP afterwards and it came in around 1000 cals - so I am calling that one a mini and fasting properly today.

Also I had another learning experience on Saturday - had some lovely party food and Prosecco at a Royal Wedding party - in the past I would have thought I'd ruined everything and just carried on all afternoon in a self-destructive downward spiral but after working out roughly what I'd had I just skipped dinner and managed to stay just under my TDEE, also went for a run on Sunday! Yesss. This is what I am loving about the 5:2 - I can eat what I want (and not be a social pariah) as long as I own up to it and balance it out elsewhere. MFP on NFDs is totally crucial to this for me though, it's like my food conscience!
Oh and I am also having scales blips or maybe my rate of weight loss has slowed as mentioned upthread! Nothing off on my Saturday weigh in, good to know it's A Thing, thanks BCF!

Thanks Bug . You are my FD hero....

I made my dc pitta and humous. I'm drooling.

I’m FD today too. So far have had a small slice toast and poached egg. Planning on small jacket potato and beetroot salad for tea.

Wow the thread is moving fast
Having a difficult fd today as totm so have cramps etc and paracetamol isn't touching it. I just want to eat copius amounts of cheese on toast and go bed with a hot water bottle

Anyhow.... I'll read back through the thread for inspiration and motivation to keep going. Hope everyone else is managing okay

Made it all day to dinner without having anything. Dinner was 300 calories which leaves me room if I need anything else but I'm so full I can't see that happening!