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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 77: AARGH ! Frustrated with the grind of daily dieting ? Eat normal food 5 days a week, fast 2 days

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 16/05/2018 20:50

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 20/05/2018 22:37

Good luck on your b2b borris

Borris · 20/05/2018 22:40

Good luck for your FD too forty Though I see them becoming a bit of a challenge. Finding the best possible food combo

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 20/05/2018 22:41

I hate my spell checker!!!!!
Mindfulness not bloody mindullness :-)
Insode = inside

note to self... preview instead of post godamnit

Borris · 20/05/2018 23:23

Mindullness is kind of the opposite 😹😹

CheshireSplat · 21/05/2018 00:11

Feeling really fed up with being fat!!!! TOTM here which explains why I fell off my B2B on Tuesday. A busy second half to the week, revolving around food on Thursday, Friday and today and 4 days of drinking means I'm not looking forward to my weigh in tomorrow. Progress is sooooo slow, I am losing about 1 lb a month it seems. I keep promising I'll MFP NFDs and then lose motivation. And half term the week after next. I think I need to do something radical so I don't give up. Sad

Rationally I know it's working. Someone I barely know said to me on Friday that I was looking trim.

Hopefully I'm just bloated and it'll all be much better in a week. Hasn't helped that I've been feeling fed up so haven't done any exercise since Wednesday, except gardening which has been very good for my head, even if it hasn't burned many calories.

Can you all send me motivating thoughts? May have to play my diet joker soon. It involves writing a cheque to an organisation I despise for an amount that hurts. I give it to DH with instructions to post it if I do not reach target weight by target date...

And BCF thanks for the not snacking information for my mum, really appreciate it.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 21/05/2018 06:56

Oh cheshire don't be so hard on yourself, I bet most of that is totm bloat and water retention. It's awful when you are feeling demotivated but it is working and people are noticing. Hang on in there.... maybe for half term could you do lots of mini fds instead? Sending you positive thoughts and some Flowers and hopefully others will have more advice.

Put the cheque book away though but tell us which organisation first Grin

WreckTangled · 21/05/2018 07:00

TOTM here too HmmAngry

FD today. I've bought an Aldi slimming ready meal for dinner. Not sure what it'll be like but it's just a veg curry so how bad can it be?

Good luck to all the fasters another lovely day here

CheshireSplat · 21/05/2018 07:08

Thanks 43. I've just weighed myself. Admittedly I do feel bloated and full but I'm 11 stone 2 1/4 which means I've lost 3/4 lb in 4 months!!!!! AAAGGGGHHHH it's ridiculous. I know BCF has explained it can be much harder to lose weight than stay the same but I'm eating so much better and more mindfully than in January and I'd stay the same on so much more food!

Need to get rid of this TOTM bloat and see how things are later in the week. I'll do 2 good as gold FDs today and Wednesday. Sob sob.

BigChocFrenzy · 21/05/2018 07:29

Phew, reminds me to be thankful: 10 years since I had to suffer totm
However, if you stay mindful and avoid totm munchies, then the morning after the FD following the end of totm, you should see a whoosh as the water has been released, along with any fat burned.

OP posts:
calzone · 21/05/2018 07:32

Harrumph.

So I weighed myself and I’m 12 stone 3lb which means I’ve gained 3lb.

I fasted on Sunday and I’m doing sw today. Is that really all I can do? I’ve nothing going on this week so can be focused and in the zone but I would like to be seeing the 11 stone number soon.

I’m going to fast on Tuesday and Thursday this week.

BigChocFrenzy · 21/05/2018 07:46

Sorry, but you really do need to mfp just for a week cheshire or you will stay like this, not really progressing much.
Most folk in your situation - quite a lot to lose, but almost no loss over several weeks - have had a serious shock when they compared intake to TDEE.

Also, mfp will highlight if you are consuming too much sugar and starchy carbs, which is another important factor that can block weight loss
because many folk who have been overweight a long time have developed insulin resistance, so they can't cope with a very carby diet.

Although most folk can lose on 5:2 without mfp, many others have got used to eating far above TDEE,
i.e. they consume far more than they burn, so their "normal" eating is abnormal for their individual body

It is very easy to eat back the full FD deficit when you have got used to eating a lot over TDEE
and what you are reporting is absolutely typical of that.
Even with better habits and healthier food, calories are dominant in weight management

Are you sure you used to maintain on the same amount as you eat on NFDs now ? Or was your weight creeping up over the years ?
Body and mind can work together to automatically resist weight loss by eating more NFD calories without realising, especially if you have a lot of social occasions and indulgent weekends, where it is easy to add several hundred extra cals without realising.

Also, actually losing requires a significant calorie deficit compared to maintaining, because otherwise the body can often compensate a small deficit, to resist loss.

Dr Michelle Harvie's research into 5:2 also mentioned that previous research on standard daily diets showed
many overweight women needed to average over 400 cals daily deficit to lose and that some needed over 800 cals deficit.

Her human studies with overweight women reported that the 5:2 groups lost more than the group on a standard daily diet,
but 77,000 posts on these threads include plenty of anecdotal evidence that progress can be blocked until NFDs are brought under control

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 21/05/2018 07:55

That may be just a blip, calzone but if progress has been slow for more than 3 weeks, en I also recommend you do one week of mfp.
SW encourages filling up so you never feel hungry, but that can develop habits of eating more than you burn

Everyone who is quite a bit overweight, unless their body suddenly changed from say new meds,
got that way from years of eating well over what they burn

In our obesogenic society, that is so easy to do Sad - huge portions of calorific food & drink are pushed 24/7

So they have to use the NFDs to permanently retrain their "normal" consumption

  • and remember that losing a lot of weight will automatically lower TDEE too, so consumption has to be adjusted to the new bod
OP posts:
quackingduck222 · 21/05/2018 07:58

Oh Cheshire - I dont know what to say, the person who noticed you were looking trim is obviously noticing a difference probably more so than people you see all the time. So you are loosing. Did you do your measurements at the start? Or how are your clothes fitting you compared to when you started? Are you working out at the moment?
I would say to try and mix it up a bit this week, can you either use MFP on your NFDs? If you use the barcode scanner and change the weights into decimals as it’s a lot easier it shouldn’t take very long to calculate and it builds up a store of your frequent foods. If not, maybe throw a mini into the mix 800- 1000 cals and see if that changes the results on the scales.

Good luck for your FD 43

Well done Borris you sound in such a good place right now good luck for you B2B.

Well done Calzone that sounds like a fantastic FD. And that’s a great NSV about not needing the fruit.

Clutter - well done on waiting for your tea.

Hoochy - well done on your loss this week and also overall that’s amazing.

43 yes your plan sounds a good one, it’s good to mix it up a bit.

Well done tangled on resisting the yummy ness.

I’ve had quite a good week this week. My teas have been a lot healthier and I’ve been drinking loads just short of 7lbs off my ridiculous gain of 9lbs last week is gone. I am planning another good week and intend to do a bit of extra gym work and will now ditch the scales in favor of the measuring tape as I’m starting to build more muscle especially in my calfs.

Have a great week everyone and good luck to all today’s fasters and B2Bers

calzone · 21/05/2018 08:12

Thank you.....

I’ve only been doing this for 2 weeks so no pattern yet.

I’m going to eat 3 meals a day and no snacking.

CheshireSplat · 21/05/2018 08:16

Oh blimmin' 'eck, BCF, you've hit the nail on the head again. Do you do life coaching too? WinkYou're right, I haven't really stayed the same my weight has crept up. In 20s around 10 stone 7-10. Only just overweight, weight for me to be at BMI of 24.9 was 10 stone 2 which I'd never been as an adult except when I did slimfast and was running 20-30 miles a week and walking 4 miles a day. I was fit though even though a little overweight , really low pulse, loads of running, spinning....

Post-children (DD1 is 6 now) weight around 11 stone 3-5. So it has crept up over the years until started 5:2 properly after Christmas. Got down to about 10 stone 9 the other day after 2 FDs so there is hope. I'm sorry, I know you keep saying the same things to me...

Quacking virtually no exercise at all at the moment... Which is wrong. And I feel flabby. Am considering going back to spinning. That'll really burn some calories..and you're right about MFP.

One thing that's really keeping me going - and I'm determined to do this - is that I just know one day I'll be used in these threads as an example of someone who really struggled to see the weight come off and then finally got it and I'll be held up as an example to others to just keep persevering!

Right, I'm an all or nothing kind of girl so I just have Bovril for work today. Think I'll be okay, I'm still so full and bloated.

BigChocFrenzy · 21/05/2018 08:22

calzone Best to allow 3 weeks to check any dietary change, such as starting 5:2 or low carb
Most 5:2ers have a good initial loss of at least a few lb by the end of 3 weeks

After this, loss tends to slow down to the longterm rate, the average being 1 lb weekly, but more if you've a fair bit to lose

At your starting weight, you should see a good rate of loss, but maybe totm or an unusual lot of social occasions have blocked this and you will progress in the next week or so,

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 21/05/2018 08:25

cheshire Don't worry, many people need a lot of time to change their mindset,
because eating & drinking are so fundamental

but … then it suddenly clicks !
The mind stops blocking the body and then longterm habits change
We've seen it so often on these threads Smile

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 21/05/2018 08:31

Excellent news, duck about your blip disappearing quickly
Told ya Smile

As you've lost a lot of weight, your body will keep trying to regain until it get used to its new low weight

  • the adaptive thermogenesis I've posted about

That's why a few days over-indulgence can give you a big blip and a fright, but you are doing exactly the right thing by tackling it immediately
Don't worry when this happens, you have maintenance under control, because you have the tools and you know how to use them

OP posts:
Akire · 21/05/2018 08:33

I’m joining thread. Have down fast in past but not been v good. Think aiming for 700 calories today as best not start to low. Am 11s 1! Which for me is heaviest I’ve been as 5’3. Wheelchair user so can’t do any meaningful movement as arms not great either. So all fat on stomach and hips nothing fits any more.

bluerunningshoes · 21/05/2018 09:15

good morning and good luck monday fasters

have a day off today (happy pfingsten to bcf)

fast day tomorrow and lots of veg today.
aching all over from gardening (my main sport)

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 21/05/2018 09:49

welcome akire and good luck, I would say starting at 700 cals to get used to fasting is a good idea, break yourself in slowly Grin

calzone that is annoying, have you any reason why? totm etc? Hopefully it'll be off soon enough

cheshire some good advice from bcf (as always!) I know some people don't like to feel chained to mfp but its worth it for a week just to see? It doesn't sound like you have a lot to lose so that might be making it slower?

Enjoy the day off blue

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 21/05/2018 09:50

missed your post quacking - well done on getting most of that blip off so quickly Grin

CheshireSplat · 21/05/2018 09:57

Welcome Akire. There are loads of us here at 5'3".

SmiledWithTheRisingSun · 21/05/2018 10:25

Hello FDers!
Am heading out to distract myself from the kitchen today.

Apologies if this has been asked before but does anyone have any advice Re: effective exercises for firming up bingo wings I can do at home? Confused

Tia x

bluerunningshoes · 21/05/2018 10:31

unfortunately no exercise can get rid of exess skin. smiled

but generelly upper body exercises can tone you. the planks again are good