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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 77: AARGH ! Frustrated with the grind of daily dieting ? Eat normal food 5 days a week, fast 2 days

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 16/05/2018 20:50

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
quackingduck222 · 19/05/2018 19:55

OMG That sounds absolutely awful. Envy

hoochymama1 · 20/05/2018 05:52

Bacon vodka, heck Grin
Moving was fine though emotional. My carpet and carpet clash. That's for another thread Wink but it really upset me Hmm
But, we went out for lunch and I had a Caesar salad, no bread, swerved on. pudding. Then didn't feel like eating more so turned it into a MFD. Good grief I don't have to massively overeat when going out for food Grin
So concur with post meno, BCF, this is the first WOE where I have lost weight. Health benefits are massive for us though, my knees are much less painful Smile
I hope all on FD/NFD have a lovely day Thanks

hoochymama1 · 20/05/2018 05:54

Whoops carpet and sofa. Warm grey and cool grey who'd have thunk?

Clearskies99 · 20/05/2018 07:42

Catching up, hope I haven't missed anyone....

Great SVs wreck smiled forty
and summer a lb down is a lb healthier
That's impressive hoochy eating sensibly while moving. Sorry about the colours clash. My joints are much better already too - its good isn't it?

Hope you are recovering OK MrD Take it easy

Rhine sounds lovely BCF hope you enjoyed your B2B

Yes BCF very focussed on the goal of maintenance and tentatively optimistic I can reverse the T2D at risk diagnosis - it is actually a blessing in disguise - of course I'm kicking myself that I ever got myself overweight in the first place (and lost and gained etc) but the T2D thing is such a good motivator for sustaining positive change.

Definitely agree post meno and shortish (5"4") need to eat much much less and, for me, be very mindful of moderate complex carbs portions

NSV belt tightened 2 notches so far Smile I've marked the notch I started at. Weekend NSV of 2 meals out and didn't overeat/ avoided refined carbs

Have a good day everyone. Keep swigging that water Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 20/05/2018 07:58

Quite a few of us post-meno have been thankful to find 5:2, since ordinary diets often don't work for us.

Loss is slower for us - so we have to avoid comparison with how quickly & easily some younger 5:2ers lose - but at least this WOE works if we are patient, so we get to goal at our own pace - and can then maintain.

We are also of a time in life when reducing the risks of several chronic diseases of aging seems much more important to us than it does to most young'uns

clear With a recent diagnosis, you've an excellent chance of reversing preT2 Smile
if you stick to this WOE and burn the excess fat around your internal organs

Then after goal, maintenance to keep that T2 away permanently

hoochy House moves are so stressful Thanks I hope you like the rest of your new home
Well done on your eating out NSV, especially under stress

  • it's a lightbulb moment when you realise you don't have to overeat just because you're eating out
OP posts:
purpleviolet1 · 20/05/2018 09:07

Hi all,

I've been off the FD wagon for a few weeks due to illness and now Ramadan. I'm not fasting for Ramadan as I'm not feeling 100% plus the LO isn't too well and isn't sleeping well either.

Wanted to ask though, re NFD, is the benefits of skipping lunch opposed to breakfast the same? Or is skipping breakfast much better? I ask because I need to start taking some supplements again to build some energy and ideally if I have them with breakfast that's best. I don't usually have breakfast but one of them is for adrenal support and needs taken before midday.

purpleviolet1 · 20/05/2018 09:07

Pleased to say I'm hovering at just under 9 stone so hopefully when I do get back on the wagon I'll be able to continue from where I left off

WreckTangled · 20/05/2018 09:42

Accidentally fell into McDonald's for breakfast. Will skip lunch and stay within TDEE.

quackingduck222 · 20/05/2018 09:55

Purple hope you feel better soon. Hopefully BCF will be along to advise you soon.
I always thought the longer the fast period the better I think that’s why 16:8 works so well with 5:2 as usually means you miss breakfast and your eating window is limited. Maybe a early lunch / late breakfast would work in your case and leave it as long as you can before taking your tablets? But on the other hand if it’s for health reasons you need to what suits you best. Well done on maintaining your lovely new weight.

Well done on your two belt notches Clear, that’s a huge NSV.

Hoochy - house moving is awful and so stressful. Well done on your food NSV. Sorry about your sofa & carpet I get upset at things like that too.

Anyone fasting today? I’m going to aim for another 10k run today and a 800 cal FD

noideawhattocallmyself · 20/05/2018 10:17

wreck I hate when that happens - I accidentally fell into 5 guys last night but just managed to stay in TDEE :)
purple hope you feel better soon, nothing worse when you're not well and LO's don't sleep well - look after yourself - brilliant that you're staying about the same - think of what you've learnt for maintenance :)
I've lost a lb this week - TOTM coming up so feeling quite positive about that, and my trousers that were a perfect fit 5 weeks ago are noticeably slipping down this morning so another NSV to keep me positive :)

purpleviolet1 · 20/05/2018 12:41

Thanks all Grin

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 20/05/2018 13:16

bacon vodka WTAF Confused
Had a lovely meal and too many drinks lastnight but didn't overeat at the Indian. Starving this morning could quite happily have done the same as wreck but going for afternoon tea in a bit so haven't eaten yet... bloody starving!

Hope everyone is enjoying a lovely sunny Sunday Smile

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 20/05/2018 13:17

Well done on your sv noidea
Oh hoochy hope you can salvage the sofa / carpet situation, howe about some bright cushions on the sofa to draw the eye away or a bright rug?

Clutterfreeintraining · 20/05/2018 13:32

Hi everyone!
Oh, oops, sorry for the bad advice re pelvic floor exercises - and that was (what I thought) my one useful tip to add to this fabulous thread!! Blush Grin
I haven’t checked in for a few days. Had the most horrendous afternoon at work on Wednesday which has pretty dominated my thoughts for the last 4 days. On the plus side, I lost my appetite for a bit and didn’t resort to binge eating junk which is what normally happens when I feel stressed (or bored or tired or hormonal!!!).
Weighed today and I’ve lost 5lbs so I’m delighted but fully aware that it’ll slow down.
Also, going to make a conscious effort not to weigh as frequently as I have been.
I hope everyone is having a good day Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 20/05/2018 14:02

Well done on your SV and Trousers Falling Down NSV, noidea Wink

purple Skipping lunch is fine:
it gives you 2 longish fasting periods of around 12 hours

In fact, Mosely did 5:2 himself that way, because he wanted to eat breakfast & supper with his family

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 20/05/2018 14:06

Well done on your SV, clutter
Sorry to hear about your horrid day at work Thanks but try not to brood on that - I hope it's all blown over now

Don't worry about the pelvic floor post:
that is how we learn from each other on these threads, by posting suggestions which may be useful or finding we need to change habits / behaviours that we thought ok

OP posts:
Clutterfreeintraining · 20/05/2018 14:18

Thank you BigChoc. Everyone involved is fine but the incident will likely trigger an inspection (childminder) so I’m in a panic about the poor state of my general paperwork. Ended up staying up until 2am updating policies and procedures but there’s a lot more work to be done. I’m so terribly disorganised when it comes to paperwork but I’m not going to bury my head (which would be my usual default!), just got to keep at it and hope I don’t get struck off - it won’t actually come to that but I’d like to feel more confident that things are in order before the inspector knocks on my door.

I’ve picked up so many fantastic tips from these threads and am learning so much.

WreckTangled · 20/05/2018 15:42

I managed to not have lunch (despite being at a fête with noodles, hog roast & bbq!) and have planned jacket potato and salad for dinner. I'll come in at just over 1000 calories so hoping that'll make up for yesterday!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 20/05/2018 15:55

Fab sv clutter and I hope all goes well at work Flowers

Good work wreck that's some willpower Grin

Just back from afternoon tea and it was delicious but ooh I dread to think about the calories Shock fd tomorrow and Friday I think and potentially a mini fd weds?

hoochymama1 · 20/05/2018 17:55

Wow Wreck well done Smile

Thinking of you, Clutter Thanks just do what you have to, get the paperwork updated and don't worry, it'll be fine.

43 you have yummy meals GrinI'm going to have a cake with my tea tonight Cake

Hope you have a better night with the LO Purple Smile

Well done Clear Grin

Yeay I lost another 1lb this am, down to 10st 6 from the 11 stone I had been when I started this WOE.
No other diet worked for me before.

So true BCF about post meno issues. Stuff that we do with our health now has real impact later on too.

Clutterfreeintraining · 20/05/2018 18:33

That’s impressive, wreck!!
Thank you forty and hoochy. I’ve put my files away for the day but will plough on over the next few evenings.
Forty - Mmm, I love afternoon tea Grin
Hoochy - yay for a lb loss!!
I had a little lightbulb moment earlier. I was making a bowl of coleslaw to go with dinner and about to pop a big spoonful in my gob when I remembered I was hungry and then remembered I was hungry because I’m not snacking so put the spoon back and waited half an hour until dinner was actually on the table!!

calzone · 20/05/2018 21:09

So.....just checking in......does this seem ok?

I had so much on this weekend and had pizza and booze on Friday night and afternoon tea on Saturday......

So, I fasted today and did really well!! I ate nothing all day and then for dinner I had a homemade chicken curry with a little rice and a whole bag of lambs lettuce which I love.
I was going to eat some fruit but I realised I didn’t need it so I had a cup of tea and went to bed.

I’m going to do a full sw day tomorrow with mindful eating.

BigChocFrenzy · 20/05/2018 21:40

Well done on your SV, hoochy
Yet another woman showing that 5:2 even works post-meno, the hardest nut of all to crack

This WOE allows occasional feasts like your special tea, 43

and your fasting plan for this next week sounds good, with the extra miniFD

Good for you, resisting the feast, wreck

  • if it hadn't been a heavy week already, you could have has one plate, but you were wise under the circs

Well done on recognising a snack sneaking in and stopping it, clutter
You only had 30 mins to wait for dinner and you've learned that you re fine to be hungry that long

A Sunday FD / miniFD is an excellent idea after a heavy Friday+Saturday, calzone
It also stopped you adding to the heavy weekend

Well done too on recognising that you didn't need fruit as well.
That's another 5:2 healthy habit:
Any meal when you are no longer hungry, stop eating

OP posts:
Borris · 20/05/2018 22:18

Well the hot weather has proved I need to sort myself out - only 1 pair of last summers shorts will do up and they were a squeeze!
So that’s motivated me for week 2. Planning b2b FD tom and tues. seems to work for me. So no breakfast and lunch is packed. That alone is an achievement as I’d usually pop out and buy something so I’m probably saving about £3.50 too

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 20/05/2018 22:36

Hope you enjoyed your cake hoochy and welldone on sv.

That's a good nsv clutter a bit of mindullness goes a long way :-)

calzone that sounds good to me although I suspect the rice would be the key calorie bomb? Bit if you only had a small portion you are probably well insode 500 cals.

Totm has just arrived Sad but still looking forward to fd tomorrow although will want to eat the world!

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