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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 77: AARGH ! Frustrated with the grind of daily dieting ? Eat normal food 5 days a week, fast 2 days

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 16/05/2018 20:50

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 19/05/2018 07:20

2lb off this week Grin, I am amazed as I've had my birthday meal, cake and alcohol in that but I suppose I have been very cautious the rest of the week and threw a mini fd in as well compensate.

Good luck anyone else weighing today...

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 19/05/2018 07:21

Fab loss wreck I'd round that up to 3lb Grin

Homemadehopeful · 19/05/2018 07:36

I know most of you are weekly weighers but I am a daily one and this morning I am 0.4lbs heavier than yesterday morning and this is after a good FD. Our weight can be so frustrating at times!!! I know I haven't actually put weight on and that there will be other factors but been as I usually go into the weekend with a loss and come out of it with a fair it feels a bit disappointing.

I do find daily weighing keeps me on track though which is why I do it. No Saturday blow out for me!!

Well done 43 and Wrecked, great SVs Grin

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 19/05/2018 08:14

That's very frustrating homemade but as you say you know you haven't put any on and there are loads of reasons why it's showing a slight gain. I personally couldn't weigh daily as that would send me off the rails, especially after an fd I am completely irrational I know you are made of stronger stuff than me. Have a good nfd with a few treats factored in and hopefully tomorrow will show a loss?

BigChocFrenzy · 19/05/2018 08:35

Well done on your SVs, 43, wreck
Excellent progress, both of you.

homemade That's an example of why daily weighing can be discouraging if you take it seriously.

Weight can naturally vary from day to day, due to the amount of undigested food, hormonal swings, retained water etc when you are mainly interested in fat loss
Trying to understand daily blips can do your head in; they average out more over a week, but even then
a genuine weekly fat loss can be hidden by a 1-3lb water swing
So the most reliable method is to look at the weekly trend over say 3 weeks, which should be downwards.

Another 5:2er who weighed daily said she ignored the result if it was up Grin which may be the best way, if you must weigh daily - don't take individual days seriously.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 19/05/2018 08:39

Some folk plot their daily results on a graph, which is maybe the best approach of all.
For 5:2, a graph typically shows a sawtooth form, especially around the FDs, but tending overall downwards over the weeks

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 19/05/2018 08:55

yumyum I spotted your interesting post about exercising with dementia on the 5:2/IF Exercise Thread #33* and have replied

OP posts:
WreckTangled · 19/05/2018 09:02

I've lost 8lb in 5 weeks I'm really pleased.

I weigh daily but I only take note of it on a Saturday.

Summer15coming · 19/05/2018 09:07

Happy Birthday, 43! I hope you enjoy your day.

SmiledWithTheRisingSun · 19/05/2018 09:10

Ooo just weighed myself - am another lb down / that's 1/2 a stone now Grin not shedloads but a significant step in the right direction. Happy Saturday all Grin

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 19/05/2018 09:40

That's an excellent loss smiled
Thanks summer birthday was actually Tues but I'm stringing it out Grin

wreck that's a good rate, do you have much to lose?

Homemadehopeful · 19/05/2018 09:55

I enter it into an app which shows a daily history and a graph, I know it will always vary up and down and long term trends is what to focus on. Even on today's weight I have lost 5.8lbs in 4 weeks so it is all going in the right direction. I know from past experience that this works better for me than only weighing once a week.

Have just come back in from a 6 - 7 km walk with a friend. Not sure I recognise myself, no alcohol on a Friday followed by out of the house before 8am on a Sat Grin

WreckTangled · 19/05/2018 10:12

Forty not really. I started in the top end of bmi and am trying get it to the lower end. My goal is a stone but I would be even happier with one and a half

BigChocFrenzy · 19/05/2018 10:34

Excellent progress, smiled, wreck, homemade

43 I thought your next birthday had come around v quickly Grin
Yes, stretch out the enjoyment

OP posts:
quackingduck222 · 19/05/2018 10:36

Croaking - good to see you back. You’ve done so well that’s a huge achievement not only on the weight loss but also the fact you’ve managed to maintain your new size.
You will absolutely smash your goal, best of luck.

Noidea- that is a huge NSV, what you describe was huge turning point for me also. A lot of the supermarkets / chocolate shops do free samples round here it’s like a group of vultures because it’s free. My mindset is only take it if you fancy it and that principle also applies to food forced on me.

Summer well done on your loss this week. I have felt the same as you throughout this WOL in that I desperately wanted to loose off my thighs it’s a stubborn area I would loose inches there but it was the last to come off. Hang in there it will happen.

BCF - you suprise me that your doing a B2B, do you do that regularly?

43 - well done on your loss this week, fantastic stuff. You must have been mindful.

Homemade- I’m a daily weighed too, keeps me keep on track but try to avoid the day to day fluctuations. I’m wondering are you due on? I’ve been caught out before with a unexpected early TOTM and a gain before straight after a FD it really confused me as this have never happened before either a loss or a STS on a FD but never a gain.

Tangled well done 8lbs is a huge amount of weight to loose.

Smiled also well done on your loss, 1/2 stone is also loads. Imagine all that on your ass cheek and you will agree it’s loads Grin.

A few of us were chatting last week / week before about weight lifting and looking on YouTube for inspiration. I was struggling to find a full video that had a good routine and not loads of chatting. Anyway spoke to a neighbor who looks incredible and asked her secret she said body pump. 45-1 hour class using a bar and weights that works the whole body. If anyone is interested check it out on YouTube as they have full classes on there and that looks awesome and just what I was looking for.

Summer15coming · 19/05/2018 13:07

43 oops! Blush Well, you can never have too many birthdays - enjoy it anyway!

BCF is there usually a need for B2B or even 2 FDs per week on maintenance? Please can you explain the benefits?

BigChocFrenzy · 19/05/2018 16:27

Duck, Summer For those of us who are short (5'3") and post-meno, weight loss was very slow and would easily be reversed unless we are more careful than younger ones.

Also, short and ancient mature means TDEE is not high enough to eat as I used to, even with regular exercise, unless I have fast days.
Exercise 5 days per week used to mean I could eat what I want - but not since meno.
Eventually, I had to grow up accept this

800 FDs work as my longterm maintenance plan and occasionally if I'm in the mood I do a b2b rather than spreading them out
(btw, I never managed b2b in the weight loss phase)

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 19/05/2018 16:33

Most of you are younger, so 6:1 with an 800 FD should work for longterm maintenance,
if you only had under 2 stone to lose and have permanently changed to better habits

However, those who have lost a lot of weight, maybe 40lb+ will experience significant adaptive thermogenesis (posted earlier about this) for at least a year,
so you may need 2 x 800 FDs until this effect wears off

Also, some shorties prefer to maintain on 2 FDs, since this means they can regularly consume above their low TDEE

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 19/05/2018 16:37

Everyone needs some sort of maintenance plan, because
Maintenance is not as strict as the weight loss phase, but it is not your old EOE either

if you return to your old WOE, then you will return to your old weight and waist

This is the real meaning behind the "diets don't work" claim:
Unless you permanently change your WOE, then you will regain - this holds for all weight loss methods

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 19/05/2018 16:39

I also fast for the health benefits - which were my original reason for starting 5:2
Same for many of the old hands - 5:2 was primarily a method of prepping for healthy aging: weight loss was a happy side benefit

OP posts:
quackingduck222 · 19/05/2018 18:21

Wow that really suprises me BCF, your diet sounds so nutritious every time you list your meals plus all that hard work at the gym. I’m actually really shocked.

BigChocFrenzy · 19/05/2018 18:35

duck I like BIG meals on NFDs Grin

OP posts:
WreckTangled · 19/05/2018 18:43

I've had a bad day. 7 pimms, on my second g&t and my friend just made me try bacon vodka Confused back on it tomorrow Smile

quackingduck222 · 19/05/2018 18:49

Haha me too. On all days including FDs, loving that 800 cals can buy you lots of extra veg and fills our massive dinner plates.

Tangled - bacon vodka is that a typo? Or are you puddled Grin

WreckTangled · 19/05/2018 18:56

Nope. Home made bacon vodka. It was awful!