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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 77: AARGH ! Frustrated with the grind of daily dieting ? Eat normal food 5 days a week, fast 2 days

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 16/05/2018 20:50

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
CheshireSplat · 06/06/2018 06:14

I think, from something posted a few threads back, that if you pay for the premium MFP you can set it up for 5.2 but not on the free app. But I would check before anyone takes me at my word and pays me for it.

CheshireSplat · 06/06/2018 06:15

Grrrrr, don't know why I put "me" in there....

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 06/06/2018 06:58

Ha ha cheshire secret shares in mfp eh Wink

CheshireSplat · 06/06/2018 07:36

😂 43 ha! I wish.

BCF thanks, as always, for the mini meal advice.

What does everyone else do if they have a long stretch between lunch and tea/dinner (other regional differences will apply).

WreckTangled · 06/06/2018 08:05

Thanks everyone! I feel OK today abdo is a bit tender though. I'm going to eat if I feel like it but don't atm so will see how the day pans out.

CantankerousCamel · 06/06/2018 08:12

Hi all! Fasting today... have a black coffee now to wake up and have arranged to do crossfit at 12.30 as then I can have a protein shake (I am weak I know)

Tonight we are having fish for dinner so very much doubt it will be over 600kcal

Iamblossom · 06/06/2018 08:24

cheshire I feel your pain here. Unfortunately I have to eat early on a fast day (by 7) or I fall headfirst into gin and nuts bite everyone's heads off in a hangry rage

Iamblossom · 06/06/2018 08:25

Jeepers, careful of Lidl bran flakes they are NOT the same as tescos in terms of calories. Just had to tip most of my bowl away after mfp-ing it or would have blown my chances of staying within tdee today!!

NotLeanButMean · 06/06/2018 08:27

MFP tip - go to more, then nutrition. Change it to 'last 7 days' and 'calories'. You get some fancy bar charts of your last 7 days calories (both net with exercise, and gross without), and it shows you your average over the week. Works even if you can't complete because of FDs.

I look at it all the time to keep me on track Blush makes me realise that even a big blow out and going a few hundred over TDEE once a week or so doesn't make a massive difference to the deficit over the week. Definitely helps with those 'fuck it, I've ruined it' moments!

PopGoesTheWeaz · 06/06/2018 08:38

Good tip mean. That's the kind of motivation I need (and you all of course). I really don't want to get bogged down in minutia of numbers but looking at weekly trends would be helpful

snailhunter · 06/06/2018 09:08

I use that on MFP, notlean - it's really helpful.

Knackered this morning! But plugging on with FD regardless - have busy day taking child to eye appointment, dog to vet (to talk about getting dog neutered: ouch.) Then second child to Cubs, then back from Cubs. Oh, and work.

Eating dinner late on NFDs - tricky one. I have found bigger lunches work well for me, and eating lunch as late as I can is good too.

PopGoesTheWeaz · 06/06/2018 09:09

blossom are you sure that wasn't a mfp or serving size error? I just looked them up and they are roughly the same (Lidl less) per 100 g.

I find MFP a great tool but realised I have to be super vigilant about the data, especially when something looks too good to be true, but also sometimes when things are out/not what I expected. Lots of double checking on packet or other sources online.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 06/06/2018 09:20

poor snaildog but its for the best....
cheshire I guess I would unhelpfully say eat a bigger lunch?

wreck good to hear you are feeling a little better

Thanks for the tip lean I hadn't seen that before Grin

Good luck to camel snail and all the other fasters

OohMrDarcy · 06/06/2018 09:27

Morning all

What are all these comments about failing?! We don't FAIL FDs cheshire and plus - we merely postpone!

Am feeling good after yestedays FD. Still only had water so far today (generally skip breakfast with the aim of 16:8 or 18:6) haven't eaten since 3pm yesterday and won't until about 1pm today so that will be a 22hr complete fast (bar water obviously). I feel better when I try to stick to one meal on the FD don't know why.

Hope everyone else is good - good luck to anyone fasting today!

Iamblossom · 06/06/2018 09:36

that's interesting Pop - 2 ounces of tescos branflakes comes up as 206 cals and 2 ounces of Lidl's comes up as 688!!

What am I doing wrong?

PopGoesTheWeaz · 06/06/2018 09:58

I see lidl has having 202 for 2 ounces here

But I see there is a separate entry here where 100g = 1200 calories and 2 ounces = 688. But I don't think that's right - double check the box, but the image of the box I found on google says 30g serving is 122 calories or 2 ounces would be less than double that.

HonkyWonkWoman · 06/06/2018 10:25

Yesterday FD ended at just about 500.
Found it easy but felt quite tired in the afternoon.
Today is NFD and am keeping it to two healthy meals.
Plenty of water.
Tomorrow is my Birthday and Dd had booked for the Comedy Club and a pizza.
Friday will be Birthday lunch with friend so postponing FD to Saturday.
5/2 is so flexible!!!!!😀

FriendlyGhost · 06/06/2018 10:45

Good luck to all today’s fasters. I’m having a FD and have been up with my youngest since 5 so it feels like it should be the afternoon already. It’s going to be a long day. She is sleeping peacefully on me at the moment because she is tired after the early start 🙄 Being trapped under a baby at least means that I can’t get near the kitchen. I’m hoping to hold out until dinner time but I will need at least one coffee to see me through.

FriendlyGhost · 06/06/2018 10:50

lamb I just had a look at the branflakes thing on the Fitbit app. A Lidl serving is 364, a Kellogg’s serving is 359 and Tesco is 109. BUT it doesn’t say what a serving size actually is. I suspect they’re all pretty similar but Tesco is being mean with its serving size.

Iamblossom · 06/06/2018 10:58

Hurrah pop - you are right! Thanks! No wonder I am hungry, tipped half of it out! What a waste. Angry

BigChocFrenzy · 06/06/2018 11:30

BEWARE serving sizes
They can be different weights for different brands of the same thing
To compare products, always look at the cals - and sugar ! - for 100g (but remember that 100g is 2-3 portions of cereal or oats)

That's a useful mfp tip, NotLean Smile

Exactly right MrD

FDs and mini-goals may sometimes be postponed, Winkbut never failed

That's because guilt & shame about food or bods are not allowed on these threads
Everyone does their best, but noone should worry about not being perfect

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 06/06/2018 11:32

For other foods , 100g may be only part of a portion
or a packet may contain daft amounts like 2.5 portions

Labels are sneaky devils

OP posts:
PopGoesTheWeaz · 06/06/2018 12:59

have had my head down at work, whirling away busy busy and just realised I'm starving. Ahh, it's lunch time, no wonder.

Never fear, quick scoot around on this thread and hunger has passed. Phew. Thanks again everyone x

DaisyandTim · 06/06/2018 13:27

Thanks for the MFp tip mean that is really helpful.
Glad you’re on the mend wreck
I’m on a NFD today but have given breakfast a miss, just had a lovely goats cheese salad for lunch yum, loads of calories but well worth it.
Hope all today’s fasters doing ok, hope the coffee sees you through friendly

Iamblossom · 06/06/2018 14:53

I am having a cook fest.

Have made a chicken casserole in the slow cooker for dh and I, cheesy bacon and leek pasta dish for the DSes, and am baking this from Rick Stein's Mexican book.

5:2 Thread No. 77: AARGH ! Frustrated with the grind of daily dieting ? Eat normal food 5 days a week, fast 2 days
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