5:2 Thread No. 77: AARGH ! Frustrated with the grind of daily dieting ? Eat normal food 5 days a week, fast 2 days

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

wreck sorry, I forgot to say I hope you start to feel better soon - fingers crossed it's something dodgy food related rather than something that brings the whole family down.

Forty yes they did but I do have a fairly weak stomach I think! Ds has to get out of the pool for a poo though and it was a bit loose (tmi)

Thanks HL hopefully I'll feel better in the morning.

Yesterday was my first FD for many months! Maybe 2 years... I’ve been pregnant/had young baby for that time.

My body seemed to really enjoy the fasting, like it remembered it and I can’t say it gave me too much grief, I didn’t feel overly hungry throughout the day and I had a large meal in the evening which isn’t ideal but I couldn’t really get out of it and my favourite thing about this diet is the freedom of it.

I also have a protein shake on fast days just to get me through CrossFit, no way could I do the intensity of work out that I do without some sustience

So I suppose I do a sort of 5:2... I also do an extra fast day so 4:3

But I don’t restrict my evening meal so much, I just have what I normally have with the family, a smaller portion if it’s particularly calorific

Yes One Meal A Day is probably what I will aim for if I can. I routinely manage 16/8 without any trouble by skipping breakfast so I will try to push lunch back and maybe bring dinner forward and see what happens.

I hope your tum is better tomorrow, wreck

Well done, daisy, hoochy

blossom A mini is fine - you have often reported nut doom !

blue You can have a burrito tomorrow

Welcome, camel
Sounds lke you probably do the system I recommend for those who don't like 500 cal FDs:
basically 3 miniFDs (sub-1000 cals) weekly instead of 2 FDs

bcf your recall never fails to amaze me.

Yes nuts are my nemesis.

belinda If you are having problems on BSD, are you sticking strictly to the low carb, no junk, no booze rules ?
The BSD would be very difficult on normal food, or even with too much "cheating" on food types and wouldn't burn fat as effectively.

re your question:
For a weight loss WOE over several weeks and months, I recommend that at least 500 calories (600 for men) within a 24-hour period.
It provides sufficient nutrients, avoids loss of lean mass over time and also psychological issues.

A one-off total fast (no cals) of 3 days has been shown not to lose muscle in healthy young male subjects, but this is different to women repeating total fasts for several weeks.
Also, there is some evidence from ADF that women may be more sensitive over time to side effects of repeated total fasts than men,
both physical and psychological.

Dr Varady carried out human trials on ADF, comparing FDs wih 50% TDEE / 25% TDEE / 0 cals.
She found 25% TDEE was the best overall system for weight loss and muscle retention.
This works out on average at 500 cals for women, 600 for men and these figures work for most folk except for those with very low / high TDEE.

Jason Fung focuses more on treating his patients rather than weight loss - he is a kidney specialist, often dealing with T2 and high BP comorbidity.
People with serious conditions obviously need to prioritise treating these over the risk of muscle loss etc.

Longer fasts have been shown to help some health problems, BUT are usually medically supervised

• Mosely in the original Horizone program did a 5-day almost total fast, but he said anything over 2 days MUST be medically supervised.

Incidentally, other specialists, like Longo, treat even patients with long buffered fasts, i.e. with some calories during fasting.

One Meal a Day has worked well for some male bodybuilders with high TDEE
but less well for women, especially those who turned to OMD because they have problems with junk, bingeing or are near an ED.

iirc, studies have shown that a daily evening gorge can worsen some health indicators - probably depends on what you are consuming and when

A ordinary heavy meal after 8pm, done regularly, has been shown to worsen the risk of CVD, strokes, high BP
Better to eat earlier - and for a really heavy meal, probably 5 pm is best

Instead of OMD, for those who can't manage FDs on 5:2, I recommend 3 weekly miniFDs (800 - 1000 cals)
but in 2-3 meals as Mosely advises on BSD
e.g. on Mon+Wed+Fri
People who have tried it on these threads have found about the same loss as 5:2 with 500 cal FDs

OMD tends to work for the first week or 2, but then people either eat their full TDEE - and hence hardly lose -
or "creep" sets in and they have a little something in the morning, then a bit more the next day etc

and even when they stop OMD they have unfortunately got used to huge meals, so quickly regaining all lost weight and more is quite common, for women at least

Finishing the day @ 612 Cals.
Does anyone else feel naughty when that warning message pops up on MFP?

Fd finished st about 580cals and included a 10 mile hilly ride. Just enjoying that sense of well being after a hard bit of exercise. Just need to do it more often! I’m a bit hungry now but concentrating on drinking even more water.

Well done everyone. @Wreck hope your better tomorrow

Think I might make bean burritos tomorrow.

Big

I’m pretty flexible with it, if I’m at home making the meal it will probably be around 600kcal I’m breastfeeding so allow myself a lil more ;-)

But I don’t really weight it and I’m not too fussed if I end up going over.

I am also stricter if I can only do two in a week or have a failed fast

I also do crossfit 4/5 days a week... so I can afford to have a bit more

Managed to stay the distance for the first FD. I reckon I went slightly over at 600 coals but am really pleased I didn't give up by lunch time.

Even did 17 miles on the turbo trainer in an hour, so had some energy too.

Going to eat normally tomorrow (not my normal but a respectable diet without a bag of Haribo🙄).

Think I will do another FD Friday...

Really enjoying reading the posts and feeling inspired to stick at it🤞

Hi all just checking in to say I failed my FD today as feeling awful with some kind of ear/throat infection. Total Cals for the day were 1530, so under TDEE but obviously not fasting. Will see how I feel on Thursday ...but will be interesting to see what happens weight wise.

Well, my 75 min run turned into a 2 hr run as I got spectacularly lost diving off down little pathways. Was great fun, though! FD for me tomorrow. Will prob not be able to move...

On only the second day of "no snacking June" (which began on 4 June) I've failed but BCF can you remind me of the rules of a mini meal please?

I had light breakfast (kiwi and Fage yoghurt), light lunch (tiny sweet potato, fat free cottage cheese, cucumber and apple) and was starving all afternoon. Didn't snack at work as only unhealthy options but had yoghurt and a couple of raspberries at 6 as we weren't eating until 8.30. I really couldn't bear not to eat when I was really hungry (FD yesterday) from midday (had lunch at midday) until 8.30.

I could try a more filling lunch next time but on NFDs we do eat late so it's a problem.

I think I definitely need more water.

I wish I loved it like dh does. He glugs back loads of it......

So today I had muesli with skimmed milk for breakfast, bacon, fried onions and 2 poached eggs on toast for lunch.
Met 2 friends for coffee and had a planned scone and jam with them.

Dinner was a very nice Maggi Bbq chicken thing with a copycat subway salad......was lovely.

So no idea on calories but fasting tomorrow so we shall see.

calzone

I’m in an egg phase, today I had beautiful farm eggs with fresh bread and a cup of tea for lunch.

Have had a fair bit to eat today but not worried as fasting tomorrow and of course my lovely CrossFit

First fast after holiday tomorrow. Feeling oddly intimidated by it. I had just finished week 5 which is, I understand, often a difficult week, and was when my wieght loss slowed last time, so it was probably good to have a week off and restart this week. Will weigh myself after fasting, but feel like I'm up 2 kg again. Will see.

naughysausage I get the bloody rage when MFP refuses to check in my FD calorie count. I feel like they are accusing me of being anorexic and unhealthy and it is completely unreasonable. Worse on the days when I run and fast and then I get angry when I have a NFD and check in at 1800 and it gives me a message about how disappointing my weightloss is going to be at that rate. I really shouldn't check in, but it's such a satisfying button to press!

I wouldn't call that snacking, cheshire and we never fail here - we just postpone sometimes

A mini-meal contains protein - e.g. your yoghurt & berries - and should be 3-4 hrs away from the previous or next meal
e.g. 12 pm lunch , 4 pm mini-meal, 8pm supper - but don't be rigid about times

Well done on your 1st FD, Topsy Good start and sensible ideas for your NFD
Well done on your FD too, hockney, sausage

Plus Don't fast if your ear infection makes you feel too bad - especially if you may have a temperature
Just have healthy TLC maintenance days with plenty of water, sleep and no snacking until you recover
I hope you feel better very soon

Camel There is no extra allowance for FD exercise, even if gym rats are theoretically negative cals for the day
Exercise level is only used to calculate TDEE for NFDs, for those who need to monitor their consumption then

However, you can have 1000 cals for EBF and 700 for later BF

I recommend newbies don't worry about NFD calories the first 2 weeks, but just follow the healthy 5:2 rules about snacks, alcohol, booze.
If loss is slower than expected, then later maybe look at NFDs.

snail I daydream (Aspie) & can then get lost anywhere !

pop I think there are some mfp experts here who can advise how to set up for 5:2,to avoid being nagged at by a damn App
Anyone ?

Yesterday ended up more a regular NFD than a mini as dinner came in at around 1000 cals (falafel flatbread with hummus and salad with sweet potato wedges so in my book worth a high calorie intake )

I am not planning on being overly restrictive normally BCF just this week want to give myself a kick start again to try and undo some of the holiday damage!!

Hope you're feeling better soon wreck and plus.

If there is a way to set mfp for 5:2 or an average weekly intake I would be interested to know, I don't do the final record bit these days, just use it to look up things and record during the day.

Wow snail, 2 hrs running!! I'm in awe of anyone who can run more than 2 mins let alone 2 hours!! Running is my absolute exercise nightmare!!!

Well done on your first FD topsy

Going to aim for 1000 cals again today but like yesterday be happy with anything close or under TDEE. Meal plan is veggie sushi plus something else for lunch and courgetti with meatballs for dinner (rest of family will have the regular spaghetti)

Have a good day all, especially those fasting

Thank you so much BCF for taking the time to post all that information. I really appreciate it.

My 800 Cals on the BSD were not low carb enough for me. That’s why I stopped doing it and switched to LCHF for a couple of weeks. I now feel that I am properly in ketosis and fasting should be easier from now on.