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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 77: AARGH ! Frustrated with the grind of daily dieting ? Eat normal food 5 days a week, fast 2 days

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 16/05/2018 20:50

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
noideawhattocallmyself · 05/06/2018 13:47

thanks Blossom however I was only away for 5 days :) now step away from those pastries! :)

Iamblossom · 05/06/2018 14:04

Hey are MASSIVE like frisbees...

Andcoveredinpoogerms Andcoveredinpoogerms
Andcoveredinpoogerms Andcoveredinpoogerms Andcoveredinpoogerms Andcoveredinpoogerms Andcoveredinpoogerms Andcoveredinpoogerms

WreckTangled · 05/06/2018 14:32

Mmm those pastries look yum disgusting!

I have survived so far on coffee, water and a cup of oxo. Tomorrow will be more difficult as we have a team thing in the afternoon so cake and biscuits. If I don't manage it I will swap my fast day for Thursday but I'll try!

NoUnderpantsinSpace · 05/06/2018 15:43

A quick question... I had a burrito for lunch. It had chicken and loads of salad stuff in/on - it was amazing. Is it possible that it comes in around 700 calories? MyFitnessPal has loads of burrito options for around 700 Hmm I'm thinking I can do a light dinner (probably skyr and some green juice) and call it a b2b...
can I have some opinions, please?

NoUnderpantsinSpace · 05/06/2018 15:58

Or maybe call it a mini and try for a mini again on Friday.... I think that might be the best option.

Naughtysausage · 05/06/2018 16:02

Meh. They look exciting, but I bet a bit disappointing. Like most shop bought chocolate cake.
(This is what I'm going with. Shush.)

I've had tomato soup and a cup of tea for lunch. Plenty of calories left for the prawn eggstravaganza this evening.

bluerunningshoes · 05/06/2018 16:05

burritos can be quite calorific (sour cream, avocado, cheese) or quite good. it really depends...

WreckTangled · 05/06/2018 16:39

The wraps alone are usually fairly calorific, agree it really depends on what you've had in it.

I can't wait for dinner, so hungry.

openupmyeagereyes · 05/06/2018 16:40

Hang in there fasters, the end is in sight!!!

BigChocFrenzy · 05/06/2018 16:46

Welcome, topsy Smile and good luck on your 1st FD

Most important tips are for NFDs:
No snacking
NHS alcohol limits
Be moderate re treats, especially sugary ones like cake, biscuits etc

blossom Yes, chant a 5:2 mantra:
"Communal food is smeared with snot and garnished with poo crumbs"

15 is a very good age for your canine snorer, Honky Smile

All dog & pup slaves:
You can go to to your hound for real love & comfort, instead of the cake tin

Welcome back, MrD
That 4lb will soon go after a good week with a couple of FDs

Underpants Burritos as standard are 1000 cals plus, with oil, sour cream, cheese, meat etc added to the beans & rice
I suggest after supper you call it a sub-TDEE NFD and move your FD / b2b to another day

OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 05/06/2018 16:52

Welcome topsy and welcome back mrd
Well done to all the fasters and those with SVs and NSVs.

Nfd here and so far so good, got 1200cals left (skipped breakfast) but lacking inspiration Shock sometimes it's harder than an fd, does anyone else find that although just reading about burrito's is giving me ideas must resist

bluerunningshoes · 05/06/2018 16:54
WreckTangled · 05/06/2018 17:23

Ds is having a meltdown and I have to take him swimming. I'm not sure I can cope without eating the cookie in the cupboard...

bluerunningshoes · 05/06/2018 17:26

you can wreck
that biscuit will taste nice tomorrow

OohMrDarcy · 05/06/2018 17:30

Evening all

I've survived first FD and the kitchen is closed on 550. I'm taking that after the last week!

Tangled - You can do it.... if DS is driving you batty... remind yourself you can have it tomorrow as a treat for surviving today!

Blossom - hope you survived those delicious disgusting looking pastries...

noidea - 2lb after a holiday is fine, probably just water retention from booze! It will be gone as quickly as it appeared Smile

Underpants that burrito sounds yummy - but I'd agree it is very unlikely to fit into a FD cals wise!

Belindabelle · 05/06/2018 17:31

Hello just coming on here to ask if anybody does a total 24-36 hour fast with no food. I have been reading/watching Jason Fung and I am interested to find out more.

I have struggled with the BSD diet on 800cals everyday. Apparently not eating anything for 2 days a week may be easier?

WreckTangled · 05/06/2018 18:09

Don't worry my dinner made me feel suddenly really sick (almost had to pull the car over) so won't be eating anymore Hmm

NoUnderpantsinSpace · 05/06/2018 18:30

Thanks everyone, I have no idea (I’m terrible at counting calories and it’s not like I could weigh it!). It is a new place that opened up about a year ago.... before then burritos were probably not on the radar of any locals. It was yummy and very salad-full... but yes to sour cream etc.

Right. Dinner was green juice followed by skyr, so all in all plenty of veggies Grin

NoUnderpantsinSpace · 05/06/2018 18:33

And sorry for giving anyone burrito envy Confused it really isn’t something I have a chance to indulge in very often!

If it helps make anyone feel better the wrap has given me terrible wind Blush

DaisyandTim · 05/06/2018 19:03

Kitchen closing here at 533, really pleased I did it after yesterday’s fail. Now to stave off the evening nibbles...

I have burrito envy too! 🌯

Well done all the fasters and to Iam for resisting the poo infected pastries Halo

Iamblossom · 05/06/2018 19:08

Yeah well hold fire on all the congrats as I have just got home and inhaled two handfuls of roasted almonds and dh poured me a gin.

Oh well today will be a mini. Happy with weight anyway.

hoochymama1 · 05/06/2018 19:32

Yeay! Puppies, pastries and prawns Grin

And BCF is the glue that holds us together Flowers

Kitchen closed at 742, feel better for a few more calories on a b2b, and leaving it until the evening when I have more or less the same as DH and DS.

Well done Tuesday fasters!

WreckTangled · 05/06/2018 19:34

I'm ending on 372 so won't be a b2b as I don't think that's sensible. I'm going to bed in a minute though. I'm wondering if the mince I used for dinner was dodgy.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 05/06/2018 19:40

Ooh iam I'd take some nuts and a Gin over poo crumb pastries any day!

Hope you feel better soon wreck did others eat the mince or just you?

Well done hoochy and daisy and all the others that I can't scroll up to see on my phone.

Mini fd I think tomorrow, might treat myself to a prawn omelette Grin

HLBug · 05/06/2018 19:48

Hi Belinda yes, some of us do 24hrs relatively frequently - but by that I mean eating dinner one evening, then skipping breakfast and lunch the next day but eating dinner again = 24 hours. I don't think anything longer than that is advised without medical supervision.

Maintenance FD for me closing on 750 calories. I think I'm coming down with a bug (the irony, I know) so it's been a bit miserable here today. Off work tomorrow and Thursday and going to treat DD and I to breakfast out tomorrow morning.

On the subject of communal poo crumbs - my work really bloody raised their game today with...weevils EnvyEnvyEnvy (definitely not envy). An infestation on another floor was discovered over the weekend and management have asked that all unsealed biscuits, cakes etc across the whole bloody building are thrown out just in case more of the little buggers / their eggs are hiding anywhere. BOAK.

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