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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 77: AARGH ! Frustrated with the grind of daily dieting ? Eat normal food 5 days a week, fast 2 days

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 16/05/2018 20:50

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
Whattheactualfuckmate · 04/06/2018 13:41

Hello!! can I join in!

Need to lose 12 pound (or maybe even 8) in four weeks - am I over reaching 🙈

Fast day today just been having tea and lemon. Hungry but determined.

CheshireSplat · 04/06/2018 13:50

Hi chocolate . Welcome!

Not yoyoing back up is why I think 5:2 can work for me as once I'm at maintenance weight, I'll be able to do 6:1 or higher calorie 5:2s. A friend and my SIL have both kept their weight off (2 or 3 stone) for years.

I've just got to get to maintenance weight first!!!

And, whattheactual could be achievable. Depends how much you have to lose. Some people with more to lose can have a good loss in the first week.

Do it, croaking you're halfway already!

Homemadehopeful · 04/06/2018 14:13

Quick check in as back from hols late last night but straight back on the scales this morning and let's just say there is some work to be done!!!

So had already committed to a FD today before I went (as per BCF ever good advice Grin) and will do another on Weds then continue with normal Fri am weigh in.

Haven't caught up on the thread yet yet but hope all those who had a break over half term had a lovely time and the everybody else is continuing to make progress with their goals Smile

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 04/06/2018 14:14

wow, I leave the thread in a hungover haze for the weekend and there's 3 pages of thread to catch up on Grin will go back and read in a bit but just checking in for a much needed FD

Clutterfreeintraining · 04/06/2018 14:27

Trenzalor - I often forget too! The best reminder I have when fasting is my rumbling tummy Grin
Snail - has your cycle improved since 5:2ing? I get quite bad pmt and was hoping if my diet/weight/blood sugar were better regulated, it might help with hormones/mood swings.
Hockney - love your goals list...I’m aiming for similar.
Welcome to the new kids Smile
How’s everyone getting on?
1ltr of water and 2 coffees for me so far.
8 1/2 hours done, only 3 1/2 to go!!

DaisyandTim · 04/06/2018 14:27

Well FD not going so well, 1st day back at work hard and decided not to make it harder, have postponed until tomorrow. Hope everyone else doing ok and welcome to the new people.

cakegoblin · 04/06/2018 14:41

Hi everyone, checking in after a tough half term during which I had no time to focus on myself at all and had to cook for the whole family more than usual. Made it through a b2b Thurs/Fri during which I made and resisted toad-in-the-hole and pizza among other things! Only to have stayed the same when I weighed myself on Saturday. Humph.

It was possibly due to this that I baked (and ate results) with the kids on Sat and with dinner out with wine I ended up consuming well over 3000 calories - this would have been a normal weekend day before but it's terrifying now that I'm adding it all up!

Have now downloaded the Happy Scales app (thanks mirror and everyone who has mentioned it since) and am doing a mini today to give myself a boost before b2b again later in the week.
snail I regularly have similar PMS-related conversations with myself and should probably get an app for that too, cheers sausage!

Iamblossom · 04/06/2018 14:47

6 water crackers so far and a fat free Greek yog.

Swum a mile.

Iamblossom · 04/06/2018 14:48

cake it's sobering when you plug it all in isn't it?

cakegoblin · 04/06/2018 14:58

lamb it certainly is, I have to skip breakfast (which I'm luckily fine with) or I can't keep within my TDEE - but still i struggle with all the little things that add up that I wouldn't have thought twice about.
Yeah I'm looking at you, mayonnaise!

*Disclaimer: the real mayonnaise, not any posters with the word mayonnaise in their usernames

openupmyeagereyes · 04/06/2018 15:00

Finding it much harder today. I ate lunch at 12 but am already feeling quite hungry. I’ve just had a marmite drink and it hasn’t helped much. Trying to distract myself...

bluerunningshoes · 04/06/2018 15:15

hang in there open

maybe next time skip lunch? I find it easier without food all day.

openupmyeagereyes · 04/06/2018 15:38

Thanks blue, I’m trying. Not long now.

I hope everyone else is doing well.

bluerunningshoes · 04/06/2018 15:43

...3 hours till dinner...

NoUnderpantsinSpace · 04/06/2018 15:49

I am back! Currently mid fast day. It’s going well - if I do say so myself. Just deciding what to have for dinner.

Life has been... complicated over the last few weeks and I am determined to change. I have decided that in June Monday will always be a FD. I know if I schedule that in then it’s at least a start and I can stick to it. So.... I’m not sure when FD2 will be. But I know that if I get one out of the way in Monday’s then I’m half way there Grin

badger82 · 04/06/2018 15:50

Keep going fasters, the end is in sight.......

openupmyeagereyes · 04/06/2018 16:30

My hunger seemed to peak between 3 & 4 then dissipated after 4. I’m looking forward to dinner though!

Clutterfreeintraining · 04/06/2018 17:18

Open - 3-4/5iah is the worst time for me. The children all have afterschool snacks and I find it so hard to stop myself eating. Have just had cereal and the last of yesterday’s carrot cake Blush Might have to forgo my dinner and take myself off to bed at 7 Hmm

Trenzalor · 04/06/2018 17:27

Well I’ve survived and the teeth are brushed as a reminder for the rest of the evening. I was hungry today but not overwhelmingly. It definitely helps I eat early with the children although I will be hungry later and starving in the morning! I wanted to eat many times during the day and not mainly because I was hungry: mainly bored and for the taste of food. It’s definitely interesting re training the body. I also ate much less at dinner than usual and feel full.
(Blue I agree, I find it easier to eat nothing until dinner.)

BigChocFrenzy · 04/06/2018 17:31

Well done on your inches NSV and a good weekend, NotLean
Those lost inches indicate bodyfat burned, which is excellent
Wear those shorts with pride

Many 5:2ers find they are "smaller" on 5:2 than they were at the same weight previously.
This is because Intermittent Fasting often increases lean mass - even without increasing exercise - at the same time as burning fat. Of course, boosting exercise would boost this effect.

This improves overall body composition - and more muscle is also good for health - but because muscle is more dense than fat, the scales may not change as much as expectex.
However, stay focused and the scales will catch up

OP posts:
CroakingCrocus · 04/06/2018 17:33

Assuming I don't succumb to jet lag induced food cravings, I should have one FD out of the way by the end of today. Ending on circa 550 calories or so and am now onto the mint tea.

BigChocFrenzy · 04/06/2018 17:36

Well done on your belt NSV and inches loss as well, blue
That should help your liber issue

Good luck cheshire
For lifelong weight management, make "no snacking" your permanent WOE, not just for June
even on your birthday - have cake, wine etc as part of a lovely meal

Welcome, chocolate Smile Are we cousins ? Grin
5:2 got my choc habit well under control

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 04/06/2018 17:40

Well done on your 1st FD back, trenzalor

Welcome, whattheactual Smile

Loss, especially initial loss, is very individual, but usually the more you have to lose - e.g. BMI 40+ - the quicker you lose.
The record is 10-12 lb in the first 2 weeks, but only a few folk have had that and they all had a severe water retention problem, that was probably skyrocketing their BP

If you are already within, or near, healthy weight, then your goal sounds rather ambitious in just 4 weeks.

OP posts:
Iamblossom · 04/06/2018 17:42

I am holding out till 7 to eat my soup.

BigChocFrenzy · 04/06/2018 17:47

If you are really trying to lose very quickly for a special occasion, then I recommend you also mfp on NFDs,
to check you are within TDEE and not eating back the FD deficit

Also, keep strictly to the 5:2 healthy habits on NFDs:

  • No snacking between meals, EVER
  • NHS alcohol limits, always
  • Drink lots of water
  • Cut right down on sugary crap in your case, with only 4 weeks, I recommend you cut out all crap & junk, as well as booze
OP posts:
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