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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 77: AARGH ! Frustrated with the grind of daily dieting ? Eat normal food 5 days a week, fast 2 days

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 16/05/2018 20:50

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
slinkyme · 01/06/2018 22:11

After the FD yesterday that wasn't I postponed my FD till today. And I managed it. Had to have dinner at 5pm as had to go out so have only had one cup of tea since then. Finished around the 500 mark.

Will eat all the yummy things from today tomorrow. Nite nite all.

Unicorn74 · 01/06/2018 22:24

So after my FD yesterday i am really struggling to eat to my TDEE which is 2150 cals. Ive just recently been diagnosed with T2 Diabetes but not on medication yet ive got 3 months to try and lose weight which hopefully will then lower my blood levels.
It's actually quite nice to feel hungry. Im the type of person who skips breakfast and then just grazes all day. Ive lost weight before using slimming world but then when i stopped i just regained it all. Ive got a quite weekend planned so i might try another FD on sunday. Ive even got the hubby on board so he should drop a few pounds aswell. Xx

openupmyeagereyes · 01/06/2018 22:45

Just finished my 2nd FD. I didn’t eat until 12 and, again, the urge to eat before then wasn’t really from hunger. I do miss a mid morning latte, will have one tomorrow with pancakes for breakfast.

I had a couple of minor slip-ups today. I ate 2 small party rings before dinner (friend bought them round for play date on Wed and I saw them in the cupboard). Plus I had 2 sips of dh’s beer this evening. Nothing major I don’t think. I will weigh in tomorrow.

Well done slinky and unicorn.

BigChocFrenzy · 01/06/2018 22:51

unicorn Stopping the snacks & grazing will really help keep you within TDEE

  • you have quite a high one, so it should be very doable -
and also gives you good habits for maintenance later

You regained on other diets before, because you resumed eating more than TDEE, but NFDs help you change that habit permanently Smile

Fasting can help correct insulin metabolism issues, but it is much more effective if you don't snack or graze on NFDs and also if you can eat within TDEE

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 01/06/2018 22:58

Well done, slinky

That's a decent 2nd FD, openup
Don't worry, it can take a while to change habits and have 2 days per week that are totally free of booze and junk.
Next FD, you can work on resisting these totally - remember "I can have it tomorrow"
These 2 recuperation days do help by giving your body downtime.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 01/06/2018 23:05

unicorn As you have T2, consider whether you can go lower carb as well as 5:2
That combination can reverse T2

If you can, cut out all sugary junk carbs, sugary breakfast cereals, crisps, chips , pies etc and fruit juice
also avoid white bread, white rice, white pasta

Keep to moderate portions (80g cooked weight) of healthy carbs like oats, potato, wholegrain / rye bread, brown / red rice or quinoa

Boost beans, peas, lentils, because they are proven to help stabilise blood sugar levels
Fish - not battered - and eggs are good protein choices

OP posts:
NotLeanButMean · 01/06/2018 23:08

Well done 43! I am down another lb, so have 5lb to go until my 10% milestone Grin

I easily fasted until 8pm today, where I had a really calorific yummy dinner and wine, which leaves me at 1300 for the day (NFD).

I feel like the diet has taught me it's ok not to eat when I'm not hungry. There's no panic. If I don't feel like breakfast, or even lunch, there's no point forcing it down.

With my FDs, I'm averaging on 1200 a day over 7 days, which is causing me to lose a good 2-2.5lbs a week. It might be too restrictive for others, and I wouldn't beat myself up about it if I go over (as I know that's what causes diets to fail), but I'm just generally less hungry, and less inclined to eat shit now.

BCF this is ok, isn't it? If my tdee on NFDs ranges from 800-1500? I feel great, I'm not forcing myself IYSWIM.

I LOVE 5:2. I feel like it'll probably change my life.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/06/2018 09:05

Well done on your SV, NotLean especially with all the other stress you have been going through
That's an excellent rate of loss and you are heading right for that important 10% milestone

That is an important NSV:
to learn not to eat when you are not hungry / to stop eating when satisfied
You have reset your "normal" eating

If your NFDs range from 800-1500, that is OK if you are genuinely not hungry - this sometimes happens when your body is burning a lot of fat for fuel.
So long as you are eating reasonably healthy food, you are getting plenty of nutrients for that amount of food.
However, if you do feel hungry on an NFD - other than in the hour or so before a meal - then do increase meal size, at least on that day.

Also, don't worry if you eat over the 1500 some days, because your real target is TDEE, which is probably quite a bit higher.
Some days you may feel hungrier than others, which is quite normal and it evens out over the weeks.

OP posts:
comehomemax · 02/06/2018 10:45

I'm now two weeks in and finding it all ok. The biggest eye opener has been tracking my calories - I realised my breakfast cereal portion was about double the amount recommend on pack so I was actually eating twice as many cals as I thought.
I've just bought some scales and took my weight today (and tried not to get depressed!) but I definitely feel my trousers are looser so hopefully next week I will see loss on the scales too!

Borris · 02/06/2018 11:13

I’ve had a funny NFD breakfast!! I was out with friends last night and when I got in at 11 I found some chocolate fingers in the fridge I’d forgotten about.

But I heard bcf saying no snacking between meals in my mind so told myself I’d have them for breakfast instead. So I’ve just had a lovely late breakfast of porridge and 4 chocolate fingers Grin

I think that’s what great about this ‘diet’. What other diet would allow choc fingers for breakfast? I’d have thought that I’d blown it for the day and eaten the whole packet!!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 02/06/2018 12:39

Well done notlean not far too go Smile

Hmmm borris interesting breakfast Grin

So..... in-laws party last night and I drank far too much and I'm joining bug in the post drinking munchies Blush I'm writing off today and will be back on it tomorrow. The dress I had in my mind to wear fitted though and apart from not being able to breathe when I sat down I was chuffed to get back into it. Dh said I looked gorgeous Grin he is easily pleased bless him!

Good luck sat fasters,

BigChocFrenzy · 02/06/2018 13:33

I'm always whispering in your ear, Borris because my spy drones hiver over everyobe's shoulder Grin

That's the way to have treats on this WOE: enjoy them - without guilt - as part of any meal, then nothing until the next meal.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 02/06/2018 13:35

43, bug Drink lots of water & lemon juice and stop munching !
Have a bowl of porridge & fruit instead

OP posts:
Naughtysausage · 02/06/2018 13:46

Congrats 43 great SV and NSV.

I've just had two days of holiday (complete with untracked holiday eating) so I'm having a mini FD today to try and counteract some of the excess. (No booze to worry about as I'm not much of a drinker).
However I also have full on TOTM bloat so I feel a bit sorry for myself! Just going to pick up a nice light soup for tea.
Good luck to anyone else attempting a weekend fast.

HLBug · 02/06/2018 16:29

I'm clean living today BCF Halo Thursday was my day of hangover food. Scales were kind this morning after yesterday's FD so I don't think my mid-week partying did too much damage.

DH is currently setting up the barbecue and we've got venison burgers for dinner tonight, yum.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/06/2018 19:30

Naughty That bloat will be gone the morning after the FD that follows the end of totm
Just avoid the totm munchies - and the scales - in the meantime

bug You are indeed Halo

OP posts:
quackingduck222 · 02/06/2018 20:47

Sneaks back onto the thread, I will try and catch up tomorrow. So so many posts.

Hope everyone is well and having a great half term.

Trenzalor · 03/06/2018 09:58

waves hi anyone who remembers me. After TTC, pregnancy and now with BF coming to an end I’m back! Well... aiming to start this week. It’s going to be interesting though because since being pregnant with my son I now get hangry (it’s all his fault). I’ll have a good re-read of everything later on to remind myself.

WreckTangled · 03/06/2018 09:59

I'm also sneaking back in after a half term of pizza, champagne, pimms, massive breakfasts and pancakes! Weighed this morning and have STS so I'm really pleased and going to have a mini today.

BigChocFrenzy · 03/06/2018 13:35

Welcome back, trenzalor and congratulations on your lo Thanks
Of course I remember you Smile

Even though your BFing has ended, I suggest you do 800 cal FDs for a while, as your body has been theough a lot.
Main change for you on NFDs - if your have resumed snacking - is no snacking / grazing

Crikey, quite a half-term - sts is impressive, wreck

How are you doing, duck - maintenance still comfortable ?

OP posts:
HonkyWonkWoman · 03/06/2018 14:35

Let's get this straight before I confess, McDonald's is my least favorite place to eat!
But.........
Yesterday, I took my two Dgs's Bowling and then to McD!
I was just having a coffee!
I find the ordering quite stressful as I don't know what they're talking about and the Till Girls look so impatient and keep saying, "is that it" after each item, even though there was only us in the queue.
Any way, I ended up with a Burger and a coffee and got carried away with the boys excitement.
So after demolishing Beefburger, I said I'd get them both a cake, got to the counter and ordered two Chocolate Muffins and a Blueberry one for me!
Will keep to 1000 today, up to now just had a big bowl of chunky veg soup.
Will have chicken salad later with yogurt and blueberries.
End of confession! 😂😂😂

BigChocFrenzy · 03/06/2018 14:58

If you must eat at McD / BK, survival tips:

have a burger, no cheese or bacon or extra sauce,
with salad and balsamic dressing
and water

No fries, onion rings, cheese dippers, or any pud

If you really must have a pud, the plain ice cream is quite good for only 280 cals

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 03/06/2018 14:59

and of course, ditch the horrid worthless bun

OP posts:
quackingduck222 · 03/06/2018 18:28

Well done wreck that’s great news.

HonkyTonk - well done for confessing your sins. Good luck for your week.

BCF - I will confess I had a shocking Saturday last week was so anxious I consumed my body weight in bread and turned into a bit of a binge. Fasted Sunday and had a huge meal out Monday and my weight rocketed again and none of my bottoms fitted. Was gutted as I had a good week prior to that. Got myself back on track this week and it’s been great sitting slightly above target now but not worried as a good week is planned and 10K next Sunday to keep me on track.

Going forward to break the binge I’ve decided the two days I struggle with thus & sat will from now on be a FD @ 800 then a mini Saturday. Prior to maintenance I shifted both FDs to those days and it broke the cycle for months so it will definitely help keep me where I want to be.

CheshireSplat · 03/06/2018 19:09

Evening all. Creeping back onto the thread (along with a couple of others I can see) after half term. Had a great week, a couple of runs, one Shred. No FDs but eating could have been worse.

Jumping back in tomorrow with a FD. DH is out Friday night so think I'll do FD no 2 on Friday. Have an industry dinner in Wednesday, along with a couple of days working in London, but I can make good choices.

Am going to measure myself tonight because I haven't done that before and download the scale app (once I've looked back up the thread to remind myself what it was called).

Nice to see so many newbies and lovely reaction from your DH, 43