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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 77: AARGH ! Frustrated with the grind of daily dieting ? Eat normal food 5 days a week, fast 2 days

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 16/05/2018 20:50

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
HonkyWonkWoman · 01/06/2018 08:05

Just realized that I went over in my Fd yesterday by miscalculating cals
for a veg Soup.
So ended at 600.
It's healthy NFD's now until next Tuesday, so I suppose I'll just carry on and put it behind me.

openupmyeagereyes · 01/06/2018 08:20

Well done fortythree.

On my 2nd FD today. Holding out until 12 to eat. I’m definitely going to miss tea and coffee with milk this morning.

Good luck today everyone.

HLBug · 01/06/2018 08:32

My lunch out has been cancelled for today so I am going to do a Friday Fast after all. Probably just as well after all the junky shite I consumed yesterday. Seriously glad I don't want / get the opportunity to drink much anymore- the nonsense I get through the next day when hungover really isn't sustainable!

Anyone else fasting today? It's already well into the mid-teens here this morning and may even get to 20-odd degrees this afternoon. That, my lovely fasting friends, is a fairly bloody momentous occasion in the (normally) frozen north east of Scotland!! Lots of water definitely required!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 01/06/2018 08:44

Well done daisy
honky I wouldn't worry too much about that it's still a good fd.
bug I agree it's the day after that does the damage.... the craving for dirty carbs to soak it all up.

Good luck Friday fasters Smile

purpleviolet1 · 01/06/2018 08:52

Hi all just checking in to say I'm still here and hovering around 8st12/13lbs. Not too bad. The lowest I got before going on this break was 8st 10lbs. Will resume after Ramadan (I'm not fasting but not feeling too well either)

Hope everyone else is doing fab

HarimadSol · 01/06/2018 09:07

I'm so frustrated. I've been doing 4:3 for the last 3 months. I lost 3.5kg over the first two months, but NOTHING in the last month.

I bloat up both on my period and at ovulation, and my cycle has shortened down to 3 weeks, so about every 10 days I swell up and it takes ages to get it back off.

I'm guessing it's because I find it harder to stick to 1500 calories on NFDs than 500 on FDs. I feel like I'm constantly 'dieting' when I'm weighing everything to put into MFP every day. I guess I just have to do it anyway.

Sorry for the moan! FD today, maybe all the period weight will come off by morning.

CocosMummy · 01/06/2018 10:16

That's brilliant fortythree 10% off is awesome! Second FD today, and will have to watch it at the weekend as I'm out both days. Goid luck to all on fast day today.

BigChocFrenzy · 01/06/2018 12:11

Congrats on your SV, 43 and that important 10% milestone

Well done on your SV too, Daisy You're on your way

600 is OK sometimes, Honky especially with mindful NFDs
Just move on and enjoy the WOE

Excellent idea, bug You've prevented 2 bad days:
the day where you drink much more booze than is good for you and the next day when your poor bod craves junk carbs

That's good maintenance, purple
I hope you feel 100% fit again soon

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 01/06/2018 12:13

harimad It may just be a plateau after losing at an average rate for 2 months
and / OR
If you are already well within healthy BMI, then progress can be very slow indeed, maybe only 1lb per month

Is 1500 your TDEE ?
If so, that is how you need to eat the rest of your life to maintain (or maintain on 5:2 for higher NFDs)
So the NFD training is important.
If your TDEE is higher, then eat up to that TDEE

4:3 can actually make NFDs harder, because only having 4 of them instead of 5 can make it seem like a diet
==> I suggest you try 5:2 for a couple of weeks, to shake things up / chill a bit.

When you mfp, what seems the problem, fitting into TDEE ?
too much sugary junk / carby junk like pizza or crisps or deep-fried food / healthy food but too large portion size / too calorie dense e.g. nuts, cheese ?

What helps to stay within TDEE without so much effort are good habits:

  • No snacking or grazing ever - this is the most important enabler Nothing between meals, including lattes, booze or even fruit - have them only with a meal. If you allow snacks on weekends & holidays, you are just perpetuating the habit
  • Be sensible about the amount of "treats", especially sweet ones and only have as part of a meal
  • Stay within NHS alcohol limits
  • Drink lots of water and cut out / cut right down on fizzy drinks, even diet ones. Fizzy water is Ok if you dislike the still kind, but only the UNflavoured kind - add a spice of fruit to jazz it up instead
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 01/06/2018 12:16

harimad If your problem is extended period bloat, then this is very much worsened by very carby food, esprcially junk carbs and also alcohol.

If the change in cycle is due to pre-meno, or to meds, changing your hormonal balance, then this can also seriously slow down weight loss

OP posts:
HarimadSol · 01/06/2018 12:57

Thanks for the help, BCF. I think it's the snacks and junk. Blush I usually don't have any through the day until after the dc go to bed, but then I always want something to eat, or sometimes I have a drink with DH when he gets home.

I started at the upper end of healthy BMI, aiming for the lower end. 1500 is my TDEE, maybe a little generous as I've had to stop running for a few weeks because of an injury. Hoping to start again soon.

I do struggle with drinking enough water because sometimes I get nauseated drinking water on an empty stomach and that puts me off. I'll try fizzy water.

I don't know why my cycle has changed. It's not meds. I'm 37 so I figured I had a few more years before premenopause. Maybe not.

I'll try to dredge up the willpower to stop snacks now. I'll try 5:2 as well for a couple of weeks. When I started I just couldn't believe how easy FDs were for me, so I figured I'd go for broke.

Thanks again for the detailed support!

BigChocFrenzy · 01/06/2018 13:29

Loss will be slow, moving within healthy BMI to the lower end

Snacking is likely a major roadblock at this stage, as you are keeping your insulin always raised, hence increasing overall hunger as well as preventing fat-burning

  • remember the graphs I posted earlier, comparing insulin over 24 hours and snacking / no snacking ?

Also, snacking within only 1500 cals short-changes you on meals
especially if you snack on junk, which would spike insulin and switch ON fat storage

Aim for 3-4 meals per NFD, so have tea if you can't last from lunch to supper
If you can't fit 4 meals into 1500 cals, then just have black coffee for breakfast
I prefer just 2 large meals per day, but that probably won't suit someone used to rating multiple times per day.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 01/06/2018 13:33

used to eating multiple times per day.

How are you doing, bug ? I'm fasting today too, no calories so far.
Day off, so planned a busy day, to keep me out of mischief
I did morning "Adaptive Motion" training, then a good long walk along the Rhine & back
I've a massage at 4:30, then walking to the Rhine for my supper and cycling home.

OP posts:
got3beauties · 01/06/2018 15:13

Thanks for the welcome! Today is a NFD for me, but I'm still keeping an eye on calorie content and what I'm putting ijn my mouth and when. One of the biggest eye openers has been when I checked calories in chia seeds Shock !! I've been free-pouring them in willy nilly into everything, not realising how calorific and fat dense they are. I know the fat is the healthy type, but wow, need to reign that habit in! Just goes to show how many mixed messaging there is around heathy eating, and how confusing it can all be?

BigChocFrenzy · 01/06/2018 16:31

That's an important insight, got3
Many foods are healthy, but still need to be consumed in the appropriate quantities for your body and what else you are consuming
I suggest 1 level tbsp per NFD of chia seeds.

You'll soon get a good idea of how much of various foods you can eat
What can really help bring NFDs under control is to develop the NO snacking habit

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 01/06/2018 16:34

btw, even without considering calories, it's best not to overdo a good thing, hence my 1tbsp recommendation:
chia seeds absorb a LOT of liquid and people who have overdone their consumption can become very blocked up
So, you need to drink a lot of water with them

OP posts:
bluerunningshoes · 01/06/2018 16:36

yes, looking up calorie content and weighing up portions is a real eye opener.
and a really important exercise to keep portion control in check.

Iamblossom · 01/06/2018 17:01

I know right got3!! Pumpkin and sunflower seeds are really calorific too! Why why why??

Motheroffourdragons · 01/06/2018 17:27

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

BigChocFrenzy · 01/06/2018 19:29

Healthy / = low cal

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 01/06/2018 19:35

At least if you don't snack normally, the very few social occasions where you can't politely refuse (when ??) will be too rare to matter.

I always find it easy to say no Grin
but that's probably because as a fussy Aspie, I hate most of what is usually offered, e.g. I have always hated butter, marge etc even in baked goods and of course in mash. sandwiches, garlic bread etc

I have learned to say that I am full up / tum a bit queasy / don't want to spoil appetite for my meal later / …
Even "I don't have a sweet tooth" is often ok, because you are not saying you don't like their particular choice of cake.

OP posts:
bluerunningshoes · 01/06/2018 19:41

and if you do want to pig out, make a meal of it.

will watch a movie with dc tonight, so instead of dinner we are having veg, doritos and variuos dips.

HLBug · 01/06/2018 19:45

Kitchen closing on about 400 calories. Less than a normal maintenance FD but given I probably consumed circa 3500 calories yesterday in junky hangover shite, it was absolutely required to get me back on track. Nothing but water all day (shouldn't have worn a stupid jumpsuit to work Hmm) and then a pitta bread filled with lettuce, spicy chicken, mixed peppers and a sprinkle of cheese for tea. Yum.

Hope your FD has gone well today too BCF

BigChocFrenzy · 01/06/2018 20:22

Well done, bug
I had a good supper of salad with egg, handkäse mit Musik & Apfel, plus crusts of rye bread
Currently relaxing with a hot cocoa, made with water & a dash of cashew milk

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 01/06/2018 20:23

Sounds like lovely relaxing family time, blue

OP posts: