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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 77: AARGH ! Frustrated with the grind of daily dieting ? Eat normal food 5 days a week, fast 2 days

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 16/05/2018 20:50

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
Borris · 31/05/2018 13:44

Good luck to today’s fasters.

I’ve treated (?!) myself to a set of scales. Weighed in at 69.3kg when I got back from shops. I was 72.5kg 2 weeks ago, but that was fully clothed at work so not quite as good as it sounds. But at least now I can track my progress properly 😀

openupmyeagereyes · 31/05/2018 13:59

Good luck to all the fasters today.

I’ve been pretty good so far - ate my snack at lunchtime 😇. Food shop is done and I’m planning another FD tomorrow before the weekend.

openupmyeagereyes · 31/05/2018 14:01

BigChocFrenzy In your opinion what is the best exercise to get rid of saddlebags? My backside is several inches lower than it should be...

Motheroffourdragons · 31/05/2018 14:05

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

BigChocFrenzy · 31/05/2018 14:07

naughty Your b2b was fine Smile
People often eat less the 1st day and compensate on FD2 - you averaged out around the 650 for b2b, which is the target

Well done on a good 1st FD, cocos and good luck with forming a permanent "no snacking" habit

It's fine to be hungry in the hour or so before each meal - those of us in our 50s and 60s grew up like that, with 3-4 meals per day, nothing between.
Humans lived like that for countless millennia, until Big Food found a spiffing wheaze to make even more profits … and invented snacking.

I can't think of a traditional food culture that has snacking between meals

Enjoy your new scales, borris
For consistent results, keep them in the same place, on a level, hard surface, not carpet
I suggest a regular weekly monitoring 1st thing in the morning after FD2, naked after loo but before eating or drinking anything.
Look at the values over 2-3 weeks, which is long enough to smooth out blips. The trend should be downwards

For those worried by scales (borris sounds happy with hers) every 2-4 weeks also works

OP posts:
got3beauties · 31/05/2018 14:32

Hello! Room for a new one?! I've been watching from the sidelines waiting for the motivation to really get hold, and I did my first ever FD (B2B) on Tuesday and yesterday. It actually went better than I was expecting. Yay!

I'm a 41 year old mother of 3 DBs. I haven't started 5:2 for the weight loss, as I've been lucky that I don't seem to hold on to too much weight, but I have noticed my waist expanding over the last couple of years. Pre-empting the hormone changes that will come in with the menopause, I want to keep my weight in check, but more importantly, I want to be healthy and not collect that abdominal fat which is definitaly my danger zone.

Thanks so much for all of the advice @BigChocFrenzy It's got me off to a great start and I'm feeling very much inpored and motivated to keep going! Sounds like a great group of women Smile

slinkyme · 31/05/2018 15:09

Gosh just posted in an old thread of realising that we were 2 threads ahead. Thanks BCF for pointing me in the right direction. So here is the post I put on the one before.

slinkyme · 31/05/2018 15:10

Just checking in. Have been off the 5:2 wagon for the last 6 weeks or so as just too much stuff happening in personal life - events, holidays, ill health, family's ill health and exams. Have felt so guilty I haven't even been reading these threads. So this is a blind post.
But decided I need to get back on this. Not so much for the weight loss but I had definitely felt less energetic and not at optimum since I stopped fasting. Not great when you are dealing with a lot of stress. Am determined to get back to the good habits. Just checking in to keep me accountable. Will see how it goes today. Only tea so far. Will have a soup at lunch and maybe some roast veggies with a scrambled egg in the evening.

Sorry will catch up on all the news upthread on how everybody is doing.

On the weight side bizarrely about 3 weeks into no fasting I lost even more weight and went to my lowest 57.3 kg but weighing today I am at 59.1 so not paying attention to these for the moment until things settle.

snailhunter · 31/05/2018 15:17

Welcome back slinky, so sorry to hear you've had a stressful time.

And hello newbies! Welcome! I personally find fasting a lot more difficult when it's cold, blue. One of my first FDs in January was minus 7!

slinkyme · 31/05/2018 15:45

Thanks snail good to see some familiar names on here. Well plans have already gone astray - had a lunchtime visitor and ended up with a baguette and potato salad. Have just calculated and have already used up my 500 calories today. Best laid plans and all that.

So will try to hang on and only have a light soup this evening or some roast veggies and leave it that. Will be more like 800 today but not bad given I haven't been doing this for a while.

plus3 · 31/05/2018 15:56

Thanks everyone Smile FD today & going well so far ...much prefer warm weather for fasting

Iamblossom · 31/05/2018 16:19

I'm still hovering and reading the thread so I am all plugged in and motivated to do a b2b on Monday and Tuesday next week.

Welcome to all newbies. This WOE really really works.

Unicorn74 · 31/05/2018 16:37

Hi everyone you all seem like a friendly bunch. Ive just started my 5.2 journey. First fast day was tuesday and doing another today. I havent quite mastered the 500cals yet ive been having about 750 on each fast day. Im going to try and do 500 next week. Any advice would be great. X

Akire · 31/05/2018 16:52

Hi everyone have an idea someone let me know science if dosnt work! but instead of doing a normal good day then fast day. How would normal breakfast and lunch then 250 meal. Then overnight no breakfast another 250 meal then sensible tea go?

So in 48h still having 2x fast meals and 3 normal health range meals just not in the same order.

I find mental a whole day is hard going but one lunch time to next seems way easier! Or would it mess up sugar burning times to much??

bluerunningshoes · 31/05/2018 17:13

2 hours till dinner
was ok today
I prefer to have a large(ish) dinner and stick it out with tea and bouillon during the day.
veg are your friend - tasty 'roughage' without too many cals.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 31/05/2018 18:58

mother I guess if you are so close to goal the loss will slow down...
Enjoy your scales borris Grin
Welcome got3 and unicorn
Glad you found the new thread slinky and you'll have weight off in no time
Not long now blue

Kitchen closed just shy of 500cals, looking forward to tomorrow and a much needed glass of wine or 2 or 6 it's the in-laws golden wedding party so we all have to play at happy families and I'll have to bite my tongue all night Grin wish me luck!!!

bluerunningshoes · 31/05/2018 19:07

fourty how many calories are in tongue? :o
good luck. sounds hard work.

kitchen closed at around 500. now I actually feel full.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 31/05/2018 19:45

Too many blue as I've been biting it for the last 7 years Grin Halo

slinkyme · 31/05/2018 22:43

Thanks fortythree.

So epic fail of a fast although quite funny how it happened. I made dinner this evening for the rest of the family. And I was so impressed with what I made. It smelt so good - I couldn't resist and there went the fast. I was so impressed that my chicken biryani turned out so good - am not that good a cook. The soup just didn't compare. I then moved onto a cup of tea and a slice of homemade cake. Clearly not a FD today.

Will see if I decide to a FD tomorrow or wait till next week. Clearly need to get myself more organised and disciplined to get back. Well done to all fasters today.

BigChocFrenzy · 01/06/2018 06:52

I'm glad you followed my link and found us, slinky - these fast threads move fast too !
Sorry to hear that rl has been so stressful, but you can chill here

Another big cheer here for veg, blue
They are packed with the nutrients your body needs
and very low cal, so long as you don't slather them in dollops of creamy / oily sauce

Welccome, got3 Smile We've always got room at this inn, in hyperspace
Fasting is good at helping hormonal issues that lead to waist expansion

Well done on your first 2 FDs
Amazing to start off with a successful b2b - you don't mess around !

Good luck on your b2b next week, blossom Let us know how you get on

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 01/06/2018 06:53

Welcome, Unicorn Smile
Yes, these 5:2 threads are very friendly supportive places

It's fine to ease in gradually with 800 FDs - I did that, as I also found 500 far too tough at first

Tips for FDs:

  • Glug a teasp Marmite (it's only 10 cals) mid-morning and mid-afternoon to avoid headaches while you are adapting to fasting
  • Drink lots of water
  • Have 1-2 meals - no snacks ! - and base meals on protein, with masses of veg

Tips for NFDs:
These should be "normal" days, which means Maintenance days, i.e. not eating back the FD deficit.

  • No snacking or grazing ever - the most effective tip ! Nothing between meals, including lattes, booze or even fruit If you allow snacks on weekends & holidays, you are just perpetuating the habit
  • Stay within NHS alcohol limits - also important for many folk !
  • Be sensible about the amount of "treats", especially sweet ones and only have as part of a meal
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 01/06/2018 07:36

akireThat mixture you propose sounds odd and seems to involve a form of daily dieting, which would be a strain for maybe not enough success.

There aren't "fast meals", just "fast days", which really last 36 hours: 1 day + 2 sleeps
however, don't worry if you find 500 FDs too tough, there are several different forms of Intermittent Fasting and hopefully one of these will suit you Smile

Alternative Systems

  • Firstly, let's see if there is an easy fix : Have you been trying to do 4:3 ? If so, you might find you can do ordinary 5:2 instead

Also, FDs should be low GI and many folk find low carb FDs easier
Base FD meals on protein (especially fish or eggs) + lots of veg.
Optionally small portions of complex carbs, but avoid white bread
Cut out any added sugar. In fact try FDs without any fruit

Have you been dividing up FD cals into too many meals or too many sugary / milky drinks ?
you might find saving all cals for supper, or lunch + supper easier

Another issue can be if you are still snacking on NFDs, or consuming a lot of sugary junk or alcohol - because this can make FDs much harder too

  • 5:2 but with FDs of up to 800 cals - this allows 2 moderate meals or 3 small ones - still no snacking / grazing
    Progress may be slower if your TDEE is lowish, but works well for TDEE > 2000

  • 3 weekly miniFDs, i.e. 1,000 cals on say Mon+Wed+Fri

  • Daily 16:8 or 14:10
    i.e. eat only within an 8-hour or 10-hour window, with no calories (including from drinks) the rest of the time
    For weight loss, this requires a daily calorie deficit, so it is best done by each day totally skipping either breakfast or supper (easiest to keep to the same daily system) and do NOT eat back the calories during the eating window

Skipping supper loses more weight, as you start the night already semi-fasted and also the deficit of missing a bigger meal is bigger.
However, most folk find skipping breakfast easier and more doable wrt family life too

16:8 or 14:8 only work as well as 5:2 if you have a similar weekly calorie deficit, so say 3,000 per week.
So, it is slow progress unless done every day
especially as people who only do it Mon-Fri tend to eat back all the calories at the weekend unless they are highly disciplined

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 01/06/2018 07:39

slinky Another 5:2 mantra:
"FDs are never failed, merely postponed" Smile

Best to plan and shop for the FD in advance
btw, I normally have a weekend FD, because I found years ago that otherwise my weekends would sabotage a good week

OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 01/06/2018 07:45

That sounds tough slinky hopefully you can manage one today.

2lbs off today so 20lb in total and got my 10% loss Grin very happy indeed...

Good luck Friday fasters

DaisyandTim · 01/06/2018 07:50

Well done fortythree that’s great!

2lb off here too but still making an inroad to my earlier gain so not a net loss yet, 2 more lbs to go before I get back to where I was at the end of March. Hope everyone has a good day.