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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 77: AARGH ! Frustrated with the grind of daily dieting ? Eat normal food 5 days a week, fast 2 days

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 16/05/2018 20:50

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 30/05/2018 08:45

wowee badger that's fab.... no snacking is a revelation isn't it?? Well done :)

Good luck on your b2b daisy

Iamblossom · 30/05/2018 09:16

Morning all.

Checking in from my week off, which also means a week off fasting. Did a cheeky weigh in this morning to check the damage, only two pounds up from weight after back to back last week so a pleasant surprise. Gym or swim everyday is obviously helping.

I ate my usual mid morning banana with my breakfast this morning in an attempt to stop grazing throughout the day so I am listening bcf! My snacking danger zone is 5-7pm....

Have also been doing the deep squats, lunges and tricep dips you listed bcf in the gym, f**k me my arse is hurting!!!! Must be working! Need to to tackle press ups, I have no upper body strength at all.

Back update, although the chiropractor seemed to be pleased she had straightened me out I felt no improvement at all UNTIL my yoga teacher showed me pigeon pose...

Oh my God, gamechanger for me

Iamblossom · 30/05/2018 09:17

Well done everyone fasting this week and good luck those of you fasting today.

Pumpkinmoon · 30/05/2018 09:59

Hi everyone Smile
I really need this group. Today I start my journey. I’ve been losing the same 18lbs on and off since DS was born and he’s just turned 2 Blushand I’ve had enough.

I’m at rock bottom about my size- my health and wellbeing are really suffering being 6 stone overweight. (To top weight of healthy bmi)
This is the biggest I’ve ever been. I have thyroid issues ( had it removed 10 years ago) and losing weight is hard- despite being on the right levels of thyroxine, so starting off doing 4:3 as this is what worked for me before at jumpstarting the loss.

First fast today and feeling determined. My goal is to log everything into mfp, I have no idea if I’m eating too much or little so this will really help.

I have my marmite ready to go.
Here’s to no snacking, moving more and shifting this weight!

calzone · 30/05/2018 10:10

Pumpkin - good luck with day 1!!!!

Very supportive group here.

CocosMummy · 30/05/2018 10:49

Mind if I join? Finally moved out of my parents house and so no longer have cupboards full of tempting goodies! Weighed myself and had a fit, I need to loose at least 2 stone and am doing my first fast day today. Trying to delay going for lunch as long as possible so I'm not starving this evening.

HonkyWonkWoman · 30/05/2018 11:19

Hi Pumpkin and Cocos!
I joined last week and have done my first weigh in this morning and am 3.5lbs lighter. Yay!
Felt a bit lightheaded and slightly grumpy on the FD's but this is me now and I'm going to do 5/2 forever!

NotLeanButMean · 30/05/2018 11:24

Good luck first dayers. Really helpful to just think 'I can have this tomorrow'. Think that's the reason I've stuck with this longer than I've ever stuck to any diet (nearly a month Blush have lost 8lbs so far).

What does everyone reckon for the calorie count on this? It was so yummy (and a better choice than the full English I was tempted by). Highest on MFP for yoghurt and granola is 350, seems a little low. Not a FD but if it's low enough I'll probably have a mini today.

Oh I had to NC, I'm the reflective object you see yourself in Wink

5:2 Thread No. 77: AARGH ! Frustrated with the grind of daily dieting ? Eat normal food 5 days a week, fast 2 days
Pumpkinmoon · 30/05/2018 11:37

Honky- what a great start- well done!
NotLean- “I can have it tomorrow” is my new mantra. I’ve stuck it up on the kitchen cupboard.

I would much rather have fast days than restrict my calories every single day and feel hard done by Grin

noideawhattocallmyself · 30/05/2018 11:40

2nd day of my first ever B2B today - finished at 670 yesterday which felt like loads for a FD :)
I'm away on hols for 5 days after today and it will all be eating out so wish me luck!
congrats honky that's a fab SV!
Good luck everyone today!

HonkyWonkWoman · 30/05/2018 11:44

Nfd so taking Dgs9 out for a carvery.
Meat, loads of veg and gravy for me and maybe a tiny icecream.
Celebrating my first weeks loss.
Fd tomorrow!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 30/05/2018 13:25

welcome pumpkin and cocos and good luck. BCF is the font of all knowledge on here so suggest reading the OP really well as it will explain everything you need.

pumpkin why don't you just try 5:2 for now instead of 4:3 and see how you get on, you might find the weight will come off with 2 fds and you can keep 4:3 in your arsenal for when you really need, i.e. a plateau?? Most people lose well with 2 fds.

Well done on your SV honky that's a great 1st weigh in :) enjoy the carvery

Hmmm mirror I mean lean i'm not sure but maybe count it as 500?

just had gosh moroccan burger and salady bits for lunch followed by greek yogurt and lemon curd, yum! Got tuna steaks and courgette and mushroom followed by more yogurt and lemon curd, should bring me in at 961cals for my mini-fd

BigChocFrenzy · 30/05/2018 14:14

Welcome, pumpkin, cocos Smile and good luck on your 1st FD

FD tip: Glug a teasp Marmite to help avoid headaches while your body is adapting to fasting

NFD tips:

  • No snacking between meals - even fruit latte / wine count as snacks
  • Keep NHS alcohol limit
  • Be sensible about junk, especially sweet treats
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 30/05/2018 14:29

Well done on your SV, Badger and an excellent lowest weight milestone
Yes, No snacking is the most important change in mindset & habits

pumpkin 4:3 is ok for a 2-3 weeks jump start, since you have fasted before
However, I recommend you then move to 5:2, which is more sustainable longterm - this might be why you didn't stick to 4.3 before
2 FDs and 5 days "normal" eating is much more doable longterm, to fit ordinary life, than 3 FDs and only 4 normal days

blossom Well done, combining your former banana snack with breakfast < my spy drone obviously works ! >
Now that the chiro has sorted out your back, you can continue with the strength moves
If your sit-down-upon is sore, then you are working hard Wink
< sergeant-major's beret firmly on: "that sorry arse should be sore ! " >

Now to get your upper body strong with press-ups - btw, when I did 800 on Christmases Eve a few years ago (gym class was cancelled !) it was sore abs that made me stop, not so much the shoulders.

The trick with press-ups is to keep your abs and your whole core rigid, in a straight line from shoulders to heels, so that only your arms are moving up and down
That straight line also means your bum should NOT stick up - don't point your bum where you shouldn't

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 30/05/2018 14:33

Well done on your SV too, notlean < I recognise you under the false moustache >
At goal you could change to LeanMeanFightingMachine
350 looks fine for that

OP posts:
CocosMummy · 30/05/2018 14:53

Thanks all, had soup for luch and am pleasantly surprised at how full I was after. It's a colleagues birthday so there's cake but I've said no so far. It's interesting that I'm not actually hungry, I just want it because it's there. Congratulations Honky and NotLean on your losses.

Iamblossom · 30/05/2018 15:44

Thanks bcf yes will persevere with press ups.

800!! ShockShockShock. You are a machine. I can manage 8 at a push!!!

Iamblossom · 30/05/2018 15:45

I have just made white chocolate blondies with DS2, a piece of white chocolate may have fallen into my mouth, dear god it was sweet. Chocolate is not usually my thing.

Wittow · 30/05/2018 15:53

I'm pondering doing this 5:2 or the BSD. Doing a bit of research on both... am a long time Weightwatcher but need to shake it up a bit.

I just have a question..... Are you guys who are doing the 5:2 hungry all the time?

snailhunter · 30/05/2018 16:05

That's a really interesting question, wittow.

I guess it depends how you define 'hunger'. On NFDs I am certainly not hungry all the time. I am, however, a lot more aware when I'm not hungry, as I've trained myself to recognise the difference between actual hunger and 'I am bored and I want to eat something.'

On FDs, it's weird. I don't get the actual painful hunger feeling in my belly all day. It might appear for ten minutes but then I distract myself and it goes. I usually go from around 8pm the night before to around 6pm the following day without eating anything, but drink loads of lovely herbal tea and water and have a coffee in the morning. Towards the end of that period, I don't get the painful hunger feeling but I do feel tired and like I want to eat. And when I do sit down to eat, it tastes so amazingly good that it's been worth the wait!

I did the 5:2 to lose weight but I have found that it's really helped me re-train my body to healthier habits - I snack far less, enjoy the food I eat much more, am able to resist temptation, and make better choices - there's a saying around food being 'worth the calories' that I've found to be so true. If I eat chocolate cake, it's got to be damn good chocolate cake rather than nasty chemically crumby stuff. And all that means I don't feel deprived - so maybe that's why I rarely feel 'hungry'.

openupmyeagereyes · 30/05/2018 16:07

Wittow I’m on my 1st FD today and I haven’t been really physically hungry yet. On a scale of 1-10 I’d say I was only at 3 or 4 now. The urge to eat is more from habit.

I had breakfast at 10am. I scrapped what I had planned and had 2 scrambled eggs on 1 1/2 pieces of dry toast. I think this was about 300 cals.

I think next time I will push on and fast until lunchtime to get it over with. Then I can eat lunch and dinner as normal, if calorie restricted. I had no concerns about fasting for 14 hours but the idea of having breakfast at 8 then going another 9+ hours until dinner was more daunting.

Naughtysausage · 30/05/2018 16:44

Wittow I am hungry today, but that's because it's day 2 of a b2b! So I haven't eaten much in almost 48 hours.
But I'm rarely hungry on NFD's although it is odd when you give up snacking to actually feel hungry before a meal. And on FD, yes I do get hungry, but it does pass quite quickly and I can always eat whatever I'm craving tomorrow! (But often don't) But I've only been doing this for 5 weeks, so someone more knowledgeable/experienced will have a better answer.

bluerunningshoes · 30/05/2018 17:03

I'm not hungry on nfd apart from the pre-meal pang, which is totally normal and healthy to have.

badger82 · 30/05/2018 17:25

HELP snack attack!! Marmite drink is on the go and trying to resist but having BAD craving for cheese right now Shock

Naughtysausage · 30/05/2018 17:43

Do you need it though Badger?

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