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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 77: AARGH ! Frustrated with the grind of daily dieting ? Eat normal food 5 days a week, fast 2 days

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 16/05/2018 20:50

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
Borris · 29/05/2018 17:02

@inlovewithchocolate I’m new to this but yes 20lb is doable. It’s what I’m aiming for!!

I personally find 2 consecutive fast days easier as you get 600 calories a day then. So I tend to skip breakfast and then have 200 calories for lunch and 400 for dinner. But everyone is different

badger82 · 29/05/2018 17:25

Marmite drink o'clock

BigChocFrenzy · 29/05/2018 17:25

Welcome, toasty Smile
and well done on your SV. Good start

openup What helps to keep within TDEE on NFDs, without counting cals are the 5:2 healthy habits:

  • NO snacking / grazing between meals Eat any treats, even fruit, as part of a meal
  • Be sensible about portion size & frequency of sugary treats, crisps, deep´-fried food, other junk
  • Keep within NHS alcohol limits always
  • Drink lots of water

nain Plain Greek yoghurt is very creamy & good; so is Skyr

Inlove People have achieved their goals on 5:2 starting from BMI 40+ or already within healthy weight and wanting to lose the last 5 lb

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 29/05/2018 17:26

The OP has all you need to know
Check out the "How to Start" section and the links & calculators there

OP posts:
calzone · 29/05/2018 18:11

I’ve been lost without you all!!!! WIFI HAS BEEN DOWN FOR 8 DAYS!

🤬🤬🤬

Ds2 and I have come away for a few days and are delighted to be reconnected.

I’ve had a really successful fast day today.

Had a Cook! meal of 308 calories and a whole bag of pea shoots for 34 calories.

Diet Coke and water.

openupmyeagereyes · 29/05/2018 18:21

BigChocFrenzy I had a pretty good day I think. I calculated my calories for breakfast ready for FD tomorrow, dinner was easily estimated and, though probably around 7-800 cals I think lunch will still keep me at around TDEE. It was leftovers from Sunday’s Mexican lasagne and primarily black beans, veg, 1 corn tortilla and a handful of grated mozzarella (I am a veggie). I had an apple afterwards.

I did have 2 snacks, a latte (Nespresso, homemade) mid morning and a small packet of hula hoops in the afternoon (I thought the shape might entice ds who has ASD and a ridiculously restricted diet). All cals included in my totals.

I probably could have drunk more water, will do so tomorrow in lieu of food! I rarely drink alcohol; years of ttc, bf and a bad sleeper have beaten it out of me. I did a fair bit of running round the garden with ds today too.

I finished dinner at 6 - I eat with ds. So breakfast no earlier than 8am then a long wait until dinner.

I hope everyone had a good day today.

plus3 · 29/05/2018 18:24

How’s it going everyone? Soup for 212, tea & coffee from 100milk allowance, then I ruined it by eating a rogue meatball from DCs supper...going to have a miso soup to try & quell the hunger pangs, then an early night.
Don’t know why I have felt so hungry today. Will do it, but it’s been tough.

plus3 · 29/05/2018 18:26

NainAGP I always use Yeo Valley natural yoghurt

BigChocFrenzy · 29/05/2018 19:10

Oh, poor calzone You must have felt bereft.
Welcome back to civilisation, including us Wink

Not long to go, plus
Miso soup, then drink water & clean your teeth to reduce temptation to nibble

openup Just try to move your snacks to meal-times - zapping the snack habit permanently genuinely makes a difference.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 29/05/2018 19:13

Why we shouldn't snack

Even "healthy" ones like fruit or dipping veg - keep insulin raised and hence reduce the time in which your body can burn fat.
And the most common / tempting snacks are not even healthy

Also, human studies show that most people consume more calories in a 24-hour period if they snack,
because the reduction in meal size (if any) is usually less than the calories contained in all the snacks.

You can lose despite snacking, but it will be slower than without.
So, have any treats - snack food, lattes, alcohol, even fruit - as part of a meal.
If you add protein, a snack can even be a mini-meal:
Broad definition of a snack is that it is less than 4 hrs away from a meal

Snacks were popularised by BIg Food around 1980, entirely to increase profits
Snacks are only ok for those who need to gain weight, e.g. underweight DC - which very few are in the West

This has caused a fundamental change for most of the population, compared to many millennia of evolution - almost no traditional eating culture includes snacking.

Each 24 hour day is now insulin-dominant instead of fasting-dominant, see graphs from Dr Jason Fung:

5:2 Thread No. 77: AARGH ! Frustrated with the grind of daily dieting ? Eat normal food 5 days a week, fast 2 days
5:2 Thread No. 77: AARGH ! Frustrated with the grind of daily dieting ? Eat normal food 5 days a week, fast 2 days
OP posts:
Clearskies99 · 29/05/2018 19:17

Thanks BCF I'm feeling confident that this can be life changeing for me.

Thanks 43 - nearly 10% is fantastic, well done! Does that mean that like me you have lots to lose? Hope it works for you and one day you'll be changing your username!

Welcome newcomers, 5:2 really works and this is a very supportive thread.

Stick with it Tuesday fasters - drink water, brush teeth and close the kitchen door Smile

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 29/05/2018 19:42

borris don't forget you get 650cals a day if you are doing b2b.... don't deprive yourself of those extra calories Smile

Well done plus

Ooh it must be nice to be back in WiFi land calzone I crave being off the grid for a day or two but the reality I'm bored after an hour or so Blush

Thanks clear yes I have lost 18lbs so far and have that again to lose... how about you? So you see inlove 20lbs is totally doable on this WOL

400cals under tdee today, think I'll leave it there and have a buffer for the weekend. Mini fd tomorrow I think, will see how I'm feeling

Borris · 29/05/2018 20:16

Is it 650 forty ?! Ooh I could kiss you. I’m going to have a couple of spoonfuls of Greek yoghurt after dinner as my extra!!!Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 29/05/2018 20:16

Yes, b2b is 250 cals per day < you can skip the sloppy kisses !>

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 29/05/2018 20:18

650 !
Now I've made the b2b gang scream in horror Blush

OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 29/05/2018 20:22

Argh bcf Grin Grin Grin

HLBug · 29/05/2018 20:31

FD closing on about 750 cals. Soup, coffee and pasta. My skin is a nightmare and I'm still bloated - TOTM is a horror this month, booooooo.

snailhunter · 29/05/2018 20:45

Kitcheb closed at around 550, hooray. Extra 50 from truly delicious black grapes for pudding.

calzone · 29/05/2018 20:54

Kitchen closed at 450 calories today.

I won’t lie.

I’m hungry.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/05/2018 21:27

Well done, fasters Smile

OP posts:
plus3 · 29/05/2018 22:16

Going to bed at 415 for the day....have managed to berate DS for not revising enough (yr9) & got really grumpy with DD (yr7) when she declared reading was boring.
I might not be at my most patient today ...

openupmyeagereyes · 30/05/2018 07:23

Ha. I just went to Amazon to download the original fast diet book to see that I already bought it in Jan 15 Grin. You’ve got to love Amazon for telling you. Looks like I read 35% of it. Will read it again from the beginning.

Good luck today everyone.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 30/05/2018 08:16

well done on getting through yesterday bug snail calzone plus
Totm is the pits isn't it, hope your bloating and skin clear up soon bug

Ha ha plus I think the technical term is 'hangry' Grin

Mini FD today, my control knickers I ordered have arrived so hoping they will work wonders under that dress Grin wish me luck!!!

Good luck weds fasters

badger82 · 30/05/2018 08:22

SV - am in the 66.something category for first time in 2 years 🙌🏻 7 more kg to go - feeling great
NFD today so going to hit it with a 16:8 and try to stay within TDEE which should be doable as got chicken salad tonight
NO SNACKING is the key

DaisyandTim · 30/05/2018 08:40

Hello, just checking in after a weekend away. Going to do 800 FD’s again this week and then back to normal next week. Probably going to have to do them back to back this week. I can’t remember who said it but do be careful with Jamie Oliver’s 5 ingredient recipe cal info, I’ve done a few recipes from there (and they were delicious) but found the cal info wasn’t accurate (may have been the brand of ingredients I use?)