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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 77: AARGH ! Frustrated with the grind of daily dieting ? Eat normal food 5 days a week, fast 2 days

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 16/05/2018 20:50

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
HLBug · 27/05/2018 22:38

It's sunny here, but still pretty chilly if you're in the wind. About 14-16 degrees today I think. I'm reasonably jealous of your hot weather BCF but know I'd never cope with it!

I wanted to ask you about the not so little tummy I seem to be developing (despite scales STS). Tonight i actually look pregnant again. Now, TOTM might be a little bit to blame but I can't help but think it's food related as it's never normally a TOTM symptom for me. What foods can cause bloat BCF? I have been eating a bit more bread recently. I also know I've not been drinking enough water recently - could that also be to blame?

SmiledWithTheRisingSun · 27/05/2018 22:48

What's the app mirror?

hoochymama1 · 28/05/2018 07:30

Yeay 43 👗 Grin. Well done Honky we're playing the long game. Hope you have a good time with the family friendly. That’s a heck of a distance.Sounds delish no idea. Feel yuck after snaffling the chocs last night BlushHope to make better choices today Hmm

bluerunningshoes · 28/05/2018 08:06

fd today
measured myself this morning, lost another couple of inches round my waist. which is hopefully mean my liver is happy.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 28/05/2018 08:19

That's fab loss in 5 weeks noidea

That's fantastic blue

Fd here today even though we are off out for the day which includes lunch in a really nice cafe, but i'm just going to have a coffee and take my own salad to eat.

Wow 31c bcf I honestly couldn't cope

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 28/05/2018 08:22

Thanks hoochy 'hope you feel less yuck today...
bug I'm finding if I have bread or rice then my stomach (which is big enough already thank you) really bloats and looks awful :-( and also feels quite sore and tender... hmmmmm

bluerunningshoes · 28/05/2018 08:26

I'm like that with industrial shop bought bread.
homemade (I usually bake myself) and fresh french sticks are ok though.

Motheroffourdragons · 28/05/2018 08:30

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

Clutterfreeintraining · 28/05/2018 09:43

Morning everyone!
I’m just sneaking back in after nearly a week away from the thread Blush
Well done to all those with SVs/NSVs and to those not seeing the results they were hoping for, keep going - this wol is so much more than what the scales tell you.
There are so many very knowledgeable posters on this thread and you all give so much of your time helping to motivate us all - thank you Flowers
Weigh day yesterday for me and 2lbs off which I’m delighted with given the amount of cake that’s been floating around the place all week. I have been trying to stick to no snacking but can’t seem to stop myself from eating junk - I am making sure I eat it at mealtimes though Blush
NFD today and I’m going to eat as normally as I can - the last week has been a bit jumbled and I’m a bit concerned that my focus is all on shedding lbs, rather than long term good habits.

MirrorMirror21 · 28/05/2018 09:45

BCF your post really resonated with me, about alcohol causing belly fat. Up until a couple of months ago, I was drinking far too much wine. Have cut down significantly, and only have 1 bottle of wine a week spread over two days. I feel so much better for it, and if it helps lose the belly, even better Grin

Smiled the apps called Happy Scale. It's free, would definitely recommend it!

Messed up on my FD yesterday, my MH has been a bit rubbish this weekend (bank holidays and lone parenting when everyone's got plans with their family aren't much fun). My gross average calories over the week is 1200 though, and net (after the shred every day) is 1000, so hopefully not sabotaged too much by not having 2 FDs (though I know it would be better to for the health benefits). Feeling better today though, off to my sisters, and will have a FD instead. Might do 3 this week to make up for it. Have a great day everyone!

Iamblossom · 28/05/2018 09:46

Can Skyr fat free yoghurt strawberry flavour really be 200 cals for a whole 350g pot???

It's absolutely delicious am going to eat the whole thing for my breakfast with pumpkin seeds mixed in.

5:2 Thread No. 77: AARGH ! Frustrated with the grind of daily dieting ? Eat normal food 5 days a week, fast 2 days
Akire · 28/05/2018 09:52

Right I’m actual going to be good today! Having failed everyday this last week. Been out got salads and steak and chicken beets for meals and eggs for breakfast. Aiming for 800 no carbs day. I can do one day right?!!!!!

MirrorMirror21 · 28/05/2018 10:08

Oh and I keep moaning about how I didn't take measurements at the beginning. But have ordered a tape measure off amazon to start taking them now. Weirdly excited to start tracking

FriendlyGhost · 28/05/2018 13:36

I wish I had taken measurements too mirror. I can tell my waist is better though because Pre children clothes are starting to fit.
I’m attempting my first btb. I’m on day 2 and it’s hard! I’m stuck on a train. I’m keeping the dc occupied with snacks and everyone around me seems to be eating. I just bought an overpriced Diet Coke to satisfy my need for something other than water. Only 3 hours to go. I hope my will power lasts!

FriendlyGhost · 28/05/2018 13:37

Lamb that is amazing! I’ll add it to the shopping list.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 28/05/2018 15:39

Well done on your 2lb loss clutter
That sounds tough mirror hope you have a better day today.
Good luck akire
Oh ghost that sounds tough but stay strong, just keep thinking about all of those clothes you can now fit into Smile

Just got back from a lovely few hours at a conservation area, we took a picnic in the end and I had an egg salad and some cherries. Driving home though past all the local pubs with everyone sat outside drinking cold beer Envy dh just poured himself an ice cold cider and is now sat in the garden, I have my pint of squash... Sad

Tuna steak with courgette and mushrooms for tea with some Greek yog and lemon curd stirred in for pud, coming in at 493 if I can resist the call of the cider!

BigChocFrenzy · 28/05/2018 18:15

Excellent waist NSV, blue which should help your liver
When is your next test scheduled ?

Well done on your SV, motherof4

bug As I posted last night to mirror
belly fat is usually specifically due to too much alcohol and / or sugary treats and or / carby junk, which all tend to preferentially store fat there and hinder it being burned from there

If it's just a totm bloat, then that would be worsened by the above;
also if your starchy carb portions are too large:
portion per meal for most folk should be maximum 80-100g cooked weight, or 2 slices bread

  • however, try to keep bread to just one meal per day, especially around totm, as this seems particularly bloating for many women.

Mirror That's an excellent alcohol NSV
If you can keep alcohol consumption moderate, then that is important for longterm health, as well as weight management

Well done on your SV and snack habit NSV, clutter
One step at a time: you've managed to keep cake to mealtimes, nothing between
Next step is to try to keep it to one sensible portion per NFD

Yes, the label is correct, blossom
Skyr is high protein & low fat, no added sugar, hence 60-65cals per 100g
The high protein makes it quite filling
It is thick & creamy, so one of my staples - if I have chilli, I stick a dollop on

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 28/05/2018 18:23

Tough journey, but stay focused, Ghost and drink fizzy water.
Not long to go until your FD supper - think of what you've planned and how satisfying it will be.

43 It's 32C and very humid, no energy
I've had 20 mins walk and I'll cycle a few minutes to my fav Rhine cafe, so at least I can drip with a good view
and enjoy an excellent "hessische Handkäse mit Musik" with an egg salad.

Everyone there will be eating the homemade ice cream cocktails, but I rarely have that now, even on baking NFDs like today
Hmm, it's been several weeks < ponders >

OP posts:
Akire · 28/05/2018 19:04

I did it! Well it’s only 7pm so time
To fail yet... but about 500 had scrambled eggs tomato lunch and then chicken and salad just now. Soya milk in coffee, not been measuring but it’s quite low anyway.

So 2h to go and then I’ve done one day. Before I used to do 500but tried on a lot of carbs so bread and fruit. So while I’ve got same planned for tomorrow I’m
Not sure what else would be in a normal week.

bluerunningshoes · 28/05/2018 19:07

kitchen closed at just over 500
was surprisingly easy today, didn't feel hungry at all.

next blood test is in 3 weeks (5 more fd) might go down to 6:1 if all is well after that.

hope you all have a great bank holiday. off to the seaside with dc tomorrow.

MirrorMirror21 · 28/05/2018 19:15

I did it too! Just over 500. Did struggle today, ate my dinner at 4 Blush but giving myself a night off from the relentless uni work, am knackered so am in bed already and will probably be asleep in the next hour. Heaven!

Well done to all fasters today and any FDs happening tomorrow. Smile

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 28/05/2018 19:32

Managed to resist the cider and kitchen closed at 493cals :-) just having a coffee in the garden now it's starting to cool a little.

Erm enjoy your "hessische Handkäse mit Musik"Grin whatever that is!!

Well done to all the other fasters Smile

Mini fd weds I think then 2nd fd on Thursday. Going to try really hard to have no alcohol this week in anticipation of the in-laws anniversary do on Friday as I'll need quite a bit to get me through it Grin

HLBug · 28/05/2018 19:34

Thanks BCF

I've just finished a bonus body pump class as DH is putting the kids to bed tonight. Zumba starting soon. FD for me tomorrow and it's much required!

bluerunningshoes · 28/05/2018 19:35

hmmm 'handkäse mit musik' is that the translucent smelly cheese with onions?

Clearskies99 · 28/05/2018 20:41

Not been able to keep up with you all on here as am drastically cutting down 'screen time' in my life and getting more active instead.

Just wanted to report my most recent milestone - passed the 5% total body weight loss (since 11th April) and next size down jeans now fit.

5:2 works, yay!! Onward and downward - I am determined to make these changes permanent and be slim again.