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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 77: AARGH ! Frustrated with the grind of daily dieting ? Eat normal food 5 days a week, fast 2 days

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 16/05/2018 20:50

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
Borris · 26/05/2018 13:35

Quick question- does a day not eating due to d and v count as a fast day? Or does illness cancel it out.

The bug appears to have passed (no more v or d) but can’t face food today

Akire · 26/05/2018 13:36

Well less calories counts whatever the cause, prob best try toast or little of something today just for energy

Naughtysausage · 26/05/2018 18:12

How did Nigella lose all that weight? Just asking for a friend because her social media is full of things that do not fit into my tdee.

Feeling a bit run down today and want to eat all of the rubbish. Irrationally craving a virgin pina colada. Meh. Hope you're all having better days.

Iamblossom · 26/05/2018 18:20

How many cals would you say you consume on a "bad" day? Like a day when tdee goes out the window and you basically eat and drink whatever you want?

Naughtysausage · 26/05/2018 19:13

Blossom not sure tbh. But can put away 2600 without trying on a day with an evening meal at my Mums (not including wine).

Iamblossom · 26/05/2018 19:38

Yeah. Me too. Although that does usually include booze.

BigChocFrenzy · 26/05/2018 20:16

Sorry to hear you had that nasty bug, Borris I hope you soon feel 100% fit again.

Do NOT have FDs for 1 week after D&V symptoms have ended
This is because the gut is still recovering and an FD can irritate it and restart symptoms
Obviously don‘t force yourself to eat if queasy, but you should eat if hungry

Instead of FDs, have a healthy maintenance week with TLC for your tum & immune system, avoiding known gut irritants.

I suggest:

  • Plenty of water & sleep
  • Avoid intense exercise - gentle walks or cycling are better, not too long
  • Nutritious meals, small-medium size so as not to overload your tum
  • Avoid very spicy food
  • No alcohol
  • No junk food, whether sweet or savoury
  • No fruit juice (very acidic)
  • No more than 2 portions fruit daily and be cautious with very acidic fruit like apples & oranges
OP posts:
badger82 · 26/05/2018 20:51

Hope everyone is having a good weekend. I've successfully eaten TDEE today which is the first weekend day in AGES I've been in control. Really hoping to continue this WOL forward. Not snacking is definitely making a difference to not falling off the wagon.

Got to be strong tomorrow as going to a BBQ. Monday should be fine and then FDs Tues and Thurs

BigChocFrenzy · 26/05/2018 21:19

Well done, badger That's a Saturday NSV
Focus Sunday, enjoy your BBQ with no snacks between, to make it a weekend NSV
Sensible weekends are a very important enabler for lifetime weight control

OP posts:
hoochymama1 · 27/05/2018 06:47

Good morning fasters and non fasters Smile
Massive self control and mindful eating on this thread Grin it is so encouraging.
Well, STS for two weeks now, but after discovering the calorie bombs through MFP am realising that I can't just eat anything. Like the eight chocolates I had on Friday night
I've more or less kept to reasonable calories each day.
I'm stuck at 10.6, which is where I was for years before.
So, FD's will be Tues and Wed.
However, wearing summer dresses from last year, they are now baggy in the waist 🤗

SmiledWithTheRisingSun · 27/05/2018 08:26

Congratulations on the stone cakegoblin that's awesome! Looking forward to reaching that milestone one day too. It's a very significant amount SmileBrewThanksStar

MirrorMirror21 · 27/05/2018 09:13

Yes, after all my moaning, I should say that I had an NSV yesterday - ordered three tiny skimpy size 10 vest tops in three different colours and they look awesome with my newly flat belly!

This is my goal! Gonna take a while though, still look 6 months pregnant Sad can definitely notice my legs and arms slimming down, but my no change to my belly.

On another note, I think my scales may be broken as I did a little weigh in to see the damage from the weekend (a couple of hundred cals over Friday, a couple under TDEE Saturday but have been way under TDEE throughout the week on NFDs). It's saying I've lost 2 more lbs Grin 13st 4 now. Am wondering if not eating enough on NFDs was possibly slowing down my metabolism? Is this a thing? Or possibly just fluctuations.

I have that happy scale app which divides weight loss goals into 10 milestones - so much more motivating and less daunting when you've got loads to lose. Just got to milestone 3 GrinGrinGrin

FD today. First weekend one. Good luck to all fasters!

badger82 · 27/05/2018 09:41

Agree hoochyman it is encouraging to read others successes

Belief in the system and results!

snailhunter · 27/05/2018 12:31

So pleased I have spurred you on mirror. I am 44 and have had two kids so am not a sylphlike 20something, either!

hoochymama1 · 27/05/2018 14:18

Well done, Mirror Flowers I think we just have to keep going and not get daunted Grin the belly will shrink!
Nice NFD, porridge and banana this am, soup and bread for lunch, thai green curry for tea. The no snacking thing has been good Grin apart from I have the rest of the box of chocs in the freezer, calling to me...

BigChocFrenzy · 27/05/2018 14:24

Well done on baggy dresses NSV, hoochy
Those lost inches are the bodyfat you've burned

Mirror Your body is not a computer.
Sometimes changes you make take a while to show up
Sometimes hormonal swings mean it is an easy or tough week to burn fat

Also, if you've had mostly good habits for a few weeks, some people don't see a gain from an occasional blowout - it's very individual

Stubborn belly fat is usually specifically due to too much alcohol and / or sugary treats / carby junk, which all tend to preferentially store fat there and hinder it being burned from there

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 27/05/2018 14:26

I'd believe the scales Wink, so well done on your SV;
keep today sensible and you'll start the week in a good position
Focus for the next 2-3 weeks and the 12 stone somethings beckon

OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 27/05/2018 15:10

Hello everyone and well done on the SVs and NSVs. I have one of my own to report.... I have 2 lovely 1950 style dresses that I haven't worn for well over 6 years and my aim was to get into one for in-laws golden wedding do this coming Friday. Well I get in both although 1 is still too tight to be comfortable but the other is pretty good Grin I'm planning fd Mon and thurs and potentially a mini fd on weds as I've only managed 1 fd this week Blush I need to sort out some control knickers though, any suggestions?

BigChocFrenzy · 27/05/2018 15:33

Well done on your dresses NSV, 43
For the next special occasion, you'll have a choice of both - or maybe they'll be too loose by then !

OP posts:
Hockneypool · 27/05/2018 17:06

Afternoon all, it’s good to hear everyone doing so well.

Having a Sunday Fd here and it’s going well. Just a late brunch of salad and avocado and lots of water
Have done 10 miles on the smart turbo trainer ( too windy for outside) and have yoga later to keep me occupied and out of the kitchen.

Off to make pizza for the exam taking dc. Seems a bit mean to have an exam on a bank holiday.

HonkyWonkWoman · 27/05/2018 17:42

Just thought I'd check in!
I'm on 5th day of 5/2 and it's going well.
Had big bowl of chunky veg soup for lunch.
And will have Chicken (ready cooked), Salad and couple of new potatoes later.
With ff Greek Yogurt, strawberries and blueberries.
Thank goodness I found this thread to help motivate me into healthy eating before my hols in July! Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 27/05/2018 18:25

Sounds like you succeeded in developing healhy habits, honky - tasty ones too

OP posts:
noideawhattocallmyself · 27/05/2018 18:37

Evening all - congrats on your dress NSV's 43 and and hoochy
Weighed after 2nd FD yesterday and half a pound off - bit disappointed as I had a really good week but TOTM has just finished so hopefully next week will show a bit more loss.
Mind you I've lost 8lb in 5 weeks so can't really complain! :) I'm the lightest I've been in 2 years now :)
Good luck everyone - I'm having a lovely salmon and anchovy salad tonight - been looking forward to it all day :)

FriendlyGhost · 27/05/2018 19:44

Great NSVs 43 and hoochy.
I did an unplanned FD today. I went for a 5k run this morning and filled up on water afterwards because it was so hot. Decided to plough on until dinner. I might make it a b2b because i’m traveling to see my family tomorrow so I won’t get another FD in for a week. I expect the evening meal will take me over my allowance when I get there but I hope I can fast all day in preparation. That’s unless 4 hours on a train with two children under 3 1/2 drives me to chocolate!

BigChocFrenzy · 27/05/2018 20:53

Noidea That's excellent progress in 5 weeks, especially with totm
and a 2-year low milestone as well
< some customers are never satisfied Grin ! >

Well done on your FD and run, Ghost

I trained today, wts & long walks, but …
31C here, 32C tomorrow and a very hot humid week ahead < drips sweat on thread >

OP posts:
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