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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 77: AARGH ! Frustrated with the grind of daily dieting ? Eat normal food 5 days a week, fast 2 days

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 16/05/2018 20:50

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
MirrorMirror21 · 25/05/2018 11:47

I fell off the wagon on my FD last night. Was so stressed with my essay and ate allll the sweets and chocolate. Felt horrible and anxious after - really don't think my body processes that much sugar very well. Still was under my TDEE as only had a small lunch and no other meals, but disappointed. However, I have just handed it in (woooo!) so tonight I am having wine Grin but will do a proper FD Sunday. Hope I haven't scuppered anything. Good lesson anyway, I won't be repeating it in a hurry.

HonkyWonkWoman · 25/05/2018 11:53

Any help please, as new to 5/2
Just had a small Avocado and calories in mfp varies from 234 to 50
Not sure if it's an haas???? Whatever that is.
Just small Avocado, 4 pack from Asda.

BigChocFrenzy · 25/05/2018 12:24

Move on, Mirror and don't worry about it.

It was exceptional circumstances that you had a junk binge and you didn't even exceed TDEE
Sugary crap may lead to temporary bloat, but a weekend FD would fix that,
but just be moderate with wine tonight and - as always best - keep to NHS limits, so 1 glass

honky For an avocado, "50" can only be a portion, usually ¼ or ⅕ avocado
For a small whole one, I suggest 220 cals
A large / Haas one is 320-350

If you are training yourself to eat within TDEE, you can weigh the actual flesh: minus skin & stone, then 100g is about 160 cals

OP posts:
littleladylawyer · 25/05/2018 12:28

Sorry you're not seeing the results snail and summer, it is so frustrating when you're trying hard but not seeing progress. Hopefully bigchoc's great advice will help.

Made it through fd yesterday, I have a cold and sore throat which made it feel tough. I was really craving a bowl of cold ambrosia custard for some reason!

I think part of my problem is being too restrictive during the week then feeling ravenous and reaching for all the high cal food at weekends. This week I've been focusing on nourishing foods and what makes me feel good, and have increased my cal limit on nfds which I'm hoping will help.

HonkyWonkWoman · 25/05/2018 12:47

Thanks BCF! I'll keep that in mind!

Borris · 25/05/2018 12:50

Well I’ve lost again 70.8kg from 72.5 2 weeks ago. But it’s a hollow victory as I now have a vomiting bug I think. My dd has it last weekend. And I’m meant to be going on a girls weekend away tonight Sad

MirrorMirror21 · 25/05/2018 12:52

Thanks BCF Thanks

BigChocFrenzy · 25/05/2018 13:36

Well done on your SV - if it was before the bug, Borris
Such rotten timing, but I hope you recover quickly Thanks

However, you would probably be wise to cancel your weekend, unless you are sure you can stick to just dry toast & water ( the standard GP advice in Germany for D&V)
They say no seedy bread, bran, butter, tea, or juice etc - and of course no alcohol - as it badly irritates a vommy tum.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 25/05/2018 13:52

Well done on nailing your FD yesterday, despite a cold, lawyer
Drink lots of water & have an early night

It's natural to feel hungry for the hour before a meal - that was normal for millenia

However, if you feel "ravenous" on NFDs, then
either
you are eating too far below TDEE - which should basically be "maintenance" days
or
you are eating / drinking the wrong type of calories - fitting too many treats / glasses of wine in your TDEE ?

My recommendations:

  • Don't save calories for an indulgent weekend, if this means you are hungry through the other 3 NFDs - it's not sustainable longterm
  • Don't binge on alcohol either - keep to NHS limits including at weekends
  • Aim to eat less processed food, especially cut down on junk, including cake, biscuits, fancy lattes, crisps etc
  • Also cut out fruit juice (veg juice is ok), dried fruit, breakfast cereal, cereal bars,
  • Boost protein, have masses of veg & beans / lentils / peas
  • Be careful of white carb portions - bread, pasta, rice, mash - and move to sensible portions of the wholegrain / less processed starches
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 25/05/2018 13:53

For weight loss, it's not just working hard but working smart
It's usually over-indulgent NFDs / treats / snacking that negate the work on FDs
So it may require a change in mindset, rather than will-power
After this, it's a doddle

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 25/05/2018 13:56

Of course, some unlucky folk are "hard losers" - meno, chronic conditions, meds etc producing very low TDEE -
and they will find loss very slow, even when they genuinely follow all the rules

OP posts:
cakegoblin · 25/05/2018 14:04

Skipping through second FD after weighing myself this morning and seeing that (for this morning at least) I have lost a stone!! First time in 25 years of faffing about with this and that diet that I have ever managed to do this!! A slim future is suddenly a possibility after all!

After that amazing boost I went for a quick swim this morning just to try and make sure that the scales don't tip up again tomorrow morning though I'm sure they won't as I have prepped my prawn omelette (it was delicious by the way) and am going to sail through with a bath and an early night with a new book as a treat to myself.

Thanks for the advice re reprogramming myself about alcohol upthread BCF - you're right. I now realise that it helps enormously that one of my FD's is on a Friday each week as Friday evening is usually my downfall.

snailhunter · 25/05/2018 14:15

Great advice bcf and thanks for the support everyone!

My diet is really pretty OK, I think. Lots of oily fish (salmon and tuna), lots of veg, lots of fruit, Greek yog, salad. No alcohol at all in the week, very little snacking, I don't drink fizzy drinks or squash or fruit juice, and when I do drink it's only a couple of glasses of wine at weekends.

I am happy to admit that I bloody love bread and cakes but I keep them to a minimum - one small slice of cake a day if there is cake in the house, two slices of home-made wholewheat bread a day for my beloved breakfast toast. Cakes are always home-made and tend to be plain rather than dripping in buttercream - banana bread, for example. To be honest, if I have to give up or drastically cut down carbs further, I'd rather just say fine, I'll stick at this weight! I also need some carbs to keep me going when I'm running.

I'm going to keep on keepin' on but just go back on MFP for a week, and see what kind of deficit I end up with. I don't really mind doing FDs so it seems silly to give up now when, as you say, it could just be a plateau and if I give it another month or so I could be where I want to be.

BigChocFrenzy · 25/05/2018 14:50

Well done on your milestone SV, goblin - that stone is so motivating for you - and on your insight about alcohol

Don't worry if the scales edge up the day after an NFD - a weight graph on 5:2 looks like a saw-tooth function,
but the trend over the weeks should be downwards

OP posts:
Naughtysausage · 25/05/2018 14:57

Thank you BCF. I've screenshot your list and will definitely ensure those are in my circuits!

Having a good NFD today, today is usually a fast and I feel oddly indulgent eating breakfast and lunch.

I weighed in yesterday and have lost 6.25lbs in the 4 weeks I've been 5:2ing. Also had a lovely NSV today where I picked up my usual size in H&M and they were all too big! Might have contributed to the slightly bulging bag I left with Blush

snailhunter · 25/05/2018 18:14

Yes, after all my moaning, I should say that I had an NSV yesterday - ordered three tiny skimpy size 10 vest tops in three different colours and they look awesome with my newly flat belly!

BigChocFrenzy · 25/05/2018 20:54

Well done on your SV and clothes size NSV, Naughty
Excellent start to your WOL

Very encouraging flat tum NSV, snail
Zapping belly fat is prio 1 for a fit shape & health

OP posts:
FriendlyGhost · 25/05/2018 22:23

This thread moves so quickly. Checking in again after a stressful week deciding whether to move house or not. I usually have a treat to make myself feel better in times like this but have resisted. Instead I treated myself to some new jeans in a 10 and they did up without a fight. My FDs were Monday and Wednesday and went well and i’m wondering if I can squeeze another one in over the weekend. I’m staying with my parents next week and I can’t admit to doing this. My dsis has issues with food and will be there. She has a habit of watching exactly what everyone eats so I have to be seen to be eating proper meals. It will only be a week off but I don’t want to lose momentum. I will just have to try to stick to the no snacking rule and get back on this as soon as i’m home.

HLBug · 25/05/2018 22:24

So I was on track for a day slightly over TDEE due to going out for a celebratory lunch. But DH ate my tea!! Before I'd even finished putting the kids to bed!! He thought I wouldn't be hungry after lunch (which, to be fair, normally I wouldn't be) so he scoffed a whole chicken and mushroom pie to himself!! So I've had a single slice of miserable cheese on toast and will now be finishing under TDEE after all. Hmph.

MirrorMirror21 · 25/05/2018 22:27

I've had pizza and chips and wine, but am just under TDEE so am resisting the Tesco finest cake in the fridge Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 25/05/2018 23:01

bug plot a suitably fiendish revenge for when he's not expecting it Wink

Friendly My policy is: I don't let other people's issues become mine
Yes, I'm very stubborn strong-minded Wink
but life's too short to live it as other people want you to - they can't give you back the wasted time

Count that as a cake NSV, Mirror Wink
You did well; progress is one step at a time.

OP posts:
WreckTangled · 26/05/2018 07:12

I've put on half a pound. But seriously fell off the wagon yesterday so I'm not surprised.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 26/05/2018 08:26

Well done on your svs cake and naughty (and anyone else I've missed)

bug how rude, agree with bcf plot your revenge carefully Wink

Fd fail yesterday, was on track until 6pm when I poured a much needed glass of wine.... in my defence I had endured a week of northern rail mayhem Angry and yesterday was the last straw. Also ended up sharing a take away but I only had a third so not too bad food wise. Weighed this morning and have sts, will try for a Fd Sunday instead as have plans today

Good luck to those fasting and weighing in today

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 26/05/2018 08:29

Excellent restraint mirror
wreck that half a pound will be off in no time

BigChocFrenzy · 26/05/2018 10:36

wreck That1/2 lb will just be undigested food and retained water, probably hiding a small loss
It should be gone with the next FD

43 Rail journeys from hell are a good reeason to postpone - we never fail Wink - an FD
You didn't binge and you stayed within TDEE, so I'd count that as ok
A weekend FD will enable you to nail your 2 FDs dor the week and usually has more benefit than weekday ones anyway

I'm fasting today. Anyone else Smile ?

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