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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 77: AARGH ! Frustrated with the grind of daily dieting ? Eat normal food 5 days a week, fast 2 days

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 16/05/2018 20:50

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
Summer15coming · 25/05/2018 09:04

Hi BCF. You asked me if I'm within BMI, and guessed that I should be losing quite a bit with my TDEE calculated on light activity.

I'm currently 3lbs over healthy BMI (it crept up over the winter). Despite eating a lot under TDEE every day and sticking to just over 500 in fast days, in the last 2 weeks I have lost one pound - and then put it on again.... My official weigh in is tomorrow as I'm doing my second FD today, but even if I suddenly lose a pound today, I'm still really fed up. My first FD was a bit rubbish this week (approx 750), so I was planning to do another miniFD on Sunday, but to be honest I'm on the cusp of giving up.

I'm just not sure what I'm doing wrong... Maybe there's not enough difference between my NFDs (often around 1200) and my FDs (often 550ish)? Apart from miscalculating the portion size of muesli and granola at the start (I don't have them at all now), I do think I'm managing to be very accurate with my MFP. It's so demoralising to be putting so much effort and focus into this and getting absolutely zero results!

HonkyWonkWoman · 25/05/2018 09:04

Starting my 3rd day of 5/2
Had one FD and finished on 500 and one NFD at 1500.
So going for another NFD today and have a FD on Saturday!
I find the Bovril drink really helps in the late afternoon.

DaisyandTim · 25/05/2018 09:16

Have a good day snail hope it all starts melting off soon!

Hopefully BCF will have some thoughts for you summer and you get it all figured out.

4lb of my 8lb gain gone after my 2nd FD yesterday, looking forward to cracking on this week, got a few complicated days to negotiate this weekend but have a bit of a plan!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 25/05/2018 09:19

snail that is very frustrating, especially as you are so close to goal. Hopefully mfping for a week will help even though it sounds like you aren't eating back tdee. Hope it moves soon.

Fd here today... got a busy day so should be okay. Good luck fellow Friday fasters

Good luck to anyone weighing in today, hope the scales are kind Smile

Akire · 25/05/2018 09:21

Still not done a fast day! Big fat fail this week. May have involved a KFC!

badger82 · 25/05/2018 09:25

It's so hard when the efforts aren't rewarded isn't it.
I'm shooting for a 16:8 mini FD as bank hol weekend likely to all be NFDs all full up to TDEE
Next FDs planned for Tues and Thurs so not weighing in until Fri next week
Am tempted to do a FD today just so I can weigh in tomorrow and hopefully show a loss....I'm so much more motivated to stick on the plan if it's working, but I've already done x2 FDs this week....thoughts?

comehomemax · 25/05/2018 09:27

Can anyone advise on ideal breakfast for non fast days. I currently eat Dorset cereal spelt flakes with musili but it is pretty sweet from the dried fruits (12g sugar per portion). Is this too high?

Iamblossom · 25/05/2018 09:35

comehome my breakfasts on NFDs are:

One (thick, I love the crust) slice of whole meal toast with cherry tomatoes and a hard boiled egg, sprinkled with salt, bloody yum

0% Greek yog with blueberries and pumpkin seeds and a banana

2 ounces (yes I weigh it) of tescos bran flakes with 200ml (yes I measure it) of skimmed milk

Occasionally porridge with boiled water which I love but it's so calorific (why?) that I don't have it often as it can scupper TDEE if I am not careful.

Porridge as a treat food - who knew? HmmShock

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 25/05/2018 09:44

Doh akire why not attempt one today?

Ha ha porridge as a treat, who'd have thought indeed Grin I don't eat breakfast anymore but when I did I would have yogurt and berries / lemon curd on toast / eggs of some sort.

Did you not weigh after your 2nd fd badger?

BigChocFrenzy · 25/05/2018 10:02

Don't worry, snail You are not doing anything wrong

sts of 3 weeks+ is a plateau
This is quite common after losing a chunk of weight as you have done
Often this plateau is a previous "set point" - a weight that you were for a long time

Plateaux are more common for women than men and
also are more common when we reach the age at which hormonal changes kick in for pre / meno, when weight loss usually becomes much more difficult

Sometimes there is no "fix" other than a few weeks of patience and persistence with the same WOE

However, at this stage in life, the different hormonal balance may cause insulin resistance and a need to change the balance of macronutrients - protein, fat, carbs - to lose weight:

Some women find they need to reduce starchy carbs
Others who are already low carbing find they need to reduce fatty meat & cheese

What suits nearly everyone - for weight & health - is a Mediterranean diet:

  • Lots of Fish - especially oily fish like salmon & sardines - with reduced red or fatty meat
  • Olive oil
  • Masses of different veg
  • No more than 2 portions fruit daily - but cut out fruit juice
  • Beans, peas or lentils on most days
  • Plain yoghurt
  • Moderate portions of nuts & seeds
  • Low - moderate portions cheese
  • Moderate / low starchy carbs (depends on the individual) but only minimally processed, in particular avoid white flour & added sugar
  • Optionally 1 glass red wine on some days - always keep NHS limits
  • Cut out / down on junk, especially sugary or deep-fried

What kind of foods / drink are you currently consuming ?

OP posts:
badger82 · 25/05/2018 10:15

I did fourtythree but last week my NFDs were over TDEE so I was static,therefore a bit demoralised
I will attempt to be patient and believe it will work if I do Minis/TDEEs and eliminate snacking

BigChocFrenzy · 25/05/2018 10:20

summer 2 weeks is not long enough to see if a WOE works for you,
especially if you have tried to diet via other means, before 5:2 - if you tried a daily reduced calorie diet for a few months, that can lower metabolism in some cases

Additional factors:
Are you at an age when pre-meno may be kicking in, or during the last 6 months have you changed hormonal contraception or prescription meds like ADs ?

If you are only a little above healthy BMI, then a 1lb weekly loss would be good and it may be disguised by hormonal swings, retained water etc

If you used another TDEE calc, I recommend Mosely‘s TDEE Calc * (set activity level to one below what you think)

and then to make this WOE sustainable for the weeks & months you will need to get to say mid-BMI,
actually increase NFDs to this calculated TDEE

Possibly type of calories is now important for you, not just the number, so see Mediteranean foods I recommended to snail
Important with plateaux is to keep to healthy 5:2 habits:

  • No snacking / grazing
  • NHS alcohol limits
  • Lots of water
  • Cut back on sugary treats & savoury junk carbs like pizza, crisp & deep-fried food

With these changes, review progress after another 2-3 weeks.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 25/05/2018 10:30

comehome I recommend avoiding sweet breakfast cereals, especially those containing wheat, also
avoid dried fruit & fruit juice

Much better choice: Porridge
Not the instant / flavoured kind, but steel-cut oats you actually cook, even in the microwave
Add fresh fruit, preferably lowish sugar, e.g. berries, apple or pears (with skin)
and also add almond flakes & cinammon too
Even healthier / lower cal, try almond or cashew milk instead of dairy milk

Of course, eggs in some form are also an excellent start to the day - scrambled, poached, omelette etc
with wholegrain or rye bread rather than white.

Quick breakfasts:
Natural pnut butter - no added sugar or palm oil - with 2 slices toast, but spread thinly to keep to about 30g
Or tinned sardines on toast

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 25/05/2018 10:34

Well done on your SV, Daisy Good progress

Blossom I think your problem with porridge is portion size, both oats & milk, because mine comes in at about 200 cals,
or 250 cals if I add chia seeds & cocoa
I recommend 40-50g oats (not flavoured instant kind) plus almond / cashew milk replacing dairy - lower cal & lower GI

OP posts:
Iamblossom · 25/05/2018 10:37

I make it with water bcf but yes tend to have 100g

BigChocFrenzy · 25/05/2018 10:42

badger I recommend sticking to 2 FDs and getting NFDs under control - especially cut out all snacking / grazing

Compensating regularly for NFDs with extra FDs is not a good approach - occasionally compensating for a special social occasion or a holiday is quite different & fine

The good 5:2 habits I listed are important for the longterm, as is learning to eat what your body actually burns, i.e within TDEE

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 25/05/2018 10:44

blossom Even 100g oats with water is only 375 cals, which is fine for breakfast, unless you are adding a lot of cals from other items

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 25/05/2018 10:47

Akire Choose a suitable day, plan your FD menu in advance, then stick to that,
no going out to junk food places - too tempting when you are a newbie

If today is too late, then plan a weekend FD - I found when I was starting that it really reduces weekend damage

OP posts:
badger82 · 25/05/2018 10:52

Thanks Bigchoc. What's the benefit of mini FDs then? Are they additional to FDs?

BigChocFrenzy · 25/05/2018 11:10

badgr Sometimes an FD doesn't go to plan, but can be turned into a mini-FD.
The smaller deficit doesn't make much difference to longterm progress if it is occasional and it allows you to keep 5 NFDs that week if you prefer.

Alternatively, it can be an extra to either help compensate for an occasional indulgent week with a big social occasion
or to help break a plateau

Recent research quoted by Dr Jason Fung in his book "the Obesity Code" indicates that miniFDs have health benefits too, although not as much as FDs, wrt switching on autophagy (replacing old cells)

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 25/05/2018 11:13

Also, some people can't cope with 500-600 cal FDs, so after examining & synthesising Mosely's 5:2 and BSD,
I proposed they try 3 miniFDs, Mon+Wed+Fri
This seems to give about the same weight loss as the 5:2 average, for those who tried it

OP posts:
Iamblossom · 25/05/2018 11:35

BCF that would be alot of cals for a breakfast for me.

BigChocFrenzy · 25/05/2018 11:40

Then your breakfast is a "mini-meal," (reasonably healthy, contains protein) which is fine if you prefer that
but for most folk who eat breakfast, 400 cals is fine, allowing for a decent lunch & supper, with maybe a mini-meal tea

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 25/05/2018 11:41

I usually skip breakfast, but if I eat it then I do have a decent meal

OP posts:
badger82 · 25/05/2018 11:46

Ah I see. Thanks for the clarification.