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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 77: AARGH ! Frustrated with the grind of daily dieting ? Eat normal food 5 days a week, fast 2 days

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 16/05/2018 20:50

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
Summer15coming · 24/05/2018 15:13

Thanks for the reply, BCF.

In terms of food choices for water loss, I am very low on junk food and alcohol, I think. One packet of crisps, one biscuit and one piece of cheesecake (I made it for the office Bake-off competition, so I really wanted to try it!) this week. Is this too much? I do have quite a lot of the itsu seaweed thins, which are only 24 calories but 1.6g fat. Would they be counted as junk?

I strictly MFP, and have calculated a TDEE based on 'light activity'. I do CrossFit 3 times, walk over 10,000 steps a day and dance Salsa 2 or 3 times per week. I did run a lot last year ( when I was at my ideal weight), but this gave me knee problems. Maybe I should do more HIIT on my indoor bike. I have also dropped my weekly ballet class since the autumn because I'm preferring more salsa at the moment.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 24/05/2018 15:47

well done resisting noidea
They had a meze special on so I plumped for that, side salad with tiny pot of houmous, pot of olives, 40g chunk of cheese, chunk of bread (I left the butter) I was starving afterwards so ended up having smoe greek yog and graps - don't know how to mfp calories for that but will have a light tea to compensate Grin

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 24/05/2018 15:47

graps = grapes Grin

calzone · 24/05/2018 16:12

452 calories so far today.

badger82 · 24/05/2018 16:14

Well done calzone. It's getting tough here now. Just made myself a marmite drink.....

Got the tough three hours with the kids before bedtime to get through!!

bluerunningshoes · 24/05/2018 16:24

2 hours till dinner. so far it's fine.

Summer15coming · 24/05/2018 16:34

Sounds a lovely lunch, 43. I'm doing the opposite - I'm on an NFD, but I've been really strict all day as I'm going out tonight and need to save some calories. A few of us are taking the office for a night out next Thursday, so we're doing a trial run tonight of where we're taking them. We've decided we're going to share a plate in 3 different places to decide where we prefer. I'm going to have to be very careful about what and how much I eat!

bluerunningshoes · 24/05/2018 18:31

kitchen closed at around 500

WreckTangled · 24/05/2018 19:21

Have come in around TDEE which I'm pleased about as have been grumpy and craving crap today Grin

badger82 · 24/05/2018 19:22

Made it to dinner time with no snacking - woohoo! Am having a glass of wine to celebrate with my dinner so day will end on 1200, does that count as a mini FD? I normally aim for 1700 as I'm still BF

snailhunter · 24/05/2018 19:27

Kitchen closed, hooray, at around 550. Been a bit of a tough one today - started feeling quite rough around 2pm, so had a tsp of Marmite and half a slice of wholemeal bread as I actually thought I might pass out. Drinking loads so not dehydration - perhaps because I only had one day between FDs when normally I have two. Anyway, was fine after that and had dinner of lovely roast veg, two slices of halloumi, Greek yog and berries.

Naughtysausage · 24/05/2018 20:21

Ladylawyer thanks - v useful. I think it might be worth investing in some cheap adjustable weights. I spent last night googling strength training workouts and fell down a fascinating rabbit hole.

Pop glad to meet a fellow runner with similar issues! Let me know what you decide to do.

I've had an eye opening NFD. I went out for lunch and had a salad and juice and cake for pudding (only ate a third of my slice - stopped when I felt full). Then in the afternoon had coffee and an oaty, rasin filled cookie (looked at the packet afterwards 370 Cals!!). And that's it, I've hit TDEE. I've actually exceeded it by 130 Cals. And not even a hint of dinner. I'm not hungry thankfully. But I don't think I would have thought twice about eating more if I wasn't logging it all on MFP and being more mindful. So kitchen is closed at +130. And tomorrow will have to close at least -130!

Congrats to all of today's fosters.

BigChocFrenzy · 24/05/2018 21:54

summer That amount of junk sounds sensible and if you always keep within NHS alcohol limits too, then that is fine.

Re the thins, with the salt content (too much may cause water retention) , I suggest you don't exceed 2 packs on any NFD, 1 on FDs
Try not to have them every day - variety is best.

I'd expect you to lose pretty well with TDEE at "light" - I would have set it at "moderate", even going down a level as Mosely suggests.
Are you already within healthy BMI, aiming for the lower end ?
If so, progress is quite likely to be slow, but just be patient

To avoid building more muscle, if this is really a concern for you, I suggest swapping 1-2 crossfit sessions for cycling - fast pace / low resistance - and swimming

  • because HIIT with heavier resistance would also build muscle, as well as placing more strain on your possibly vulnerable knees.
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 24/05/2018 22:11

Well done on no snacking, badger
That is a good sub-TDEE NFD
a miniFD needs to be below 1000
(except for those with TDEE over 2,000, who could count 50% TDEE as a mini if they wish)

On NFDs, your TDEE is not affected by BF
It is on FDs where you have the extra: 1000 cals for EBF, 700 cals otherwise
If you are losing well on your system and feel comfortable, then stay on it; if that stops, then try as above

That's a valuable learning experience, naughty
mfp does give a reality check / shock
That's typical of eating out with sweet things, because they tend to be calorie dense and not very filling - in fact sweet junk usually increases overall hunger during the day.

Heathy 5:2 habits are to stick to one sweet treat per day, not every day and not on a day you have fruit juice (which is a sweet treat, with the concentrated sugar)

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 24/05/2018 22:17

naughty You don't need weights to strength train:
You can just use bodyweight, since newbies should concentrate on the large muscle groups - back /shoulders and bum/thighs - which have more effect on shape & calorie burn than smaller muscle groups like biceps

To start strength training, I would suggest these bodyweight exercises:

  • deep squats (back straight, point bum rearwards, weight on your heels)
  • lunges - back straight, only as low as you can go without knee discomfort
  • tricep dips on a step or bench - straight legs are more effective
  • pressups - back straight, keep bum down
  • plank - back straight, keep bum down
  • side plank with hip raises
OP posts:
snailhunter · 25/05/2018 07:52

Weigh-in for me today: have put on a pound. Sigh. Have been bumping along at 9st 10/9st 11 for a month now. Was really hoping for a loss today - not helped by TOTM going haywire so I have no idea whether I'm due or not. Maybe I'll go back to MFP this week just to double check but I really don't think I'm going over TDEE - have stuck to all the rules! I guess this is the reality of losing small amounts when you're 44...

Iamblossom · 25/05/2018 08:05

snail you had gained a pound from your weight ore fast day? Or you gained a pound from the last time you weighed a week ago?

Iamblossom · 25/05/2018 08:05

*pre fast day

Iamblossom · 25/05/2018 08:08

So this week so far has been two days of 650, and two days of 1700.

I have been super hungry on my nfds, and have really struggled to exercise due to being basically housebound with new puppy. Have managed a dog walk with my other dog each day but I would normally do that plus gym sessions and running.

I hit 8 9 after my B2B, will do my usual weigh in on Tuesday instead of Monday next week, as I know DH is planning a bbq for BH Monday.

Just need to not inhale nuts and bread all weekend.

snailhunter · 25/05/2018 08:11

Hi blossom - this is my weigh-ins for the last month. I always weigh the morning after my second fast day, same place, before breakfast, after loo:

26 April 9st 11
4 May 9 st 11
11 May 9st 10
18 May 9st 10
25 May 9 st 11

Looking at the bigger picture, I have lost 1st 2lbs since January, and gone down a dress size, and I shouldn't lose sight of that! I guess what concerns me is that if I'm not losing, I'm maintaining, and if I need two fast days to maintain then something is wrong somewhere but I just can't work out what.

Iamblossom · 25/05/2018 08:13

Hmm. Yes frustrating. I'd be thinking Hmmif I didn't see a loss after a fd, even if it is fleeting and an "artificial" low iykwim

Iamblossom · 25/05/2018 08:15

And snail that loss is stupendous. I reckon you are just at a plateau and it will all suddenly click.

DaisyandTim · 25/05/2018 08:29

What target are you aiming for?

The only thing I can think of is if you have you recalculated TDEE since you started as that will have changed? Otherwise I agree with Iam and it’s just a plateau.

DaisyandTim · 25/05/2018 08:30

Sorry that was for snail

snailhunter · 25/05/2018 08:58

Cheers blossom and daisy, I'm aiming for 9st 7lb for my happy weight, to give me a bit of leeway. Yep, I have been recalculating TDEE at one exercise level below as Mosley suggests, every few pounds - current one is 1728 cals per day. Right, I'm not going to stress about this. Will go back on MFP for a week just to check I haven't slipped and will now go and enjoy my day. First day of half term here so will be juggling work and child!

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