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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 77: AARGH ! Frustrated with the grind of daily dieting ? Eat normal food 5 days a week, fast 2 days

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 16/05/2018 20:50

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
Motheroffourdragons · 24/05/2018 09:14

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

snailhunter · 24/05/2018 10:24

Second FD for me today: just checking in! Have been for lovely rainy walk through the woods with dog, now trying to get on with work stuff in the vain hope of not having much to do over half term.

Hockneypool · 24/05/2018 10:48

Morning all

Just checking in, had a good week so far with the no snacking and feeling better for it.

Trying to up my steps everyday too - no excuse as it’s finally warmed up a bit and is sunny. West coast Scotland has such a lovely climate!

DaisyandTim · 24/05/2018 11:09

Hello, just checking in for my 2nd mini fast day today. Well done wreck crocus and smiled on your SV’s 👍

BigChocFrenzy · 24/05/2018 11:10

badger Hot bovril (10 cals) is a slightly different taste for variety
If the Marmite drink is made with a teasp Marmite, then that is 10 cals too

I wouldn't bother adding them to the 500 total if it's just 2 drinks, say mid-morning and mid-afternoon - regard them as being medicinal (!) to avoid headaches
Any more than 2 and maybe include them

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 24/05/2018 11:22

Well done on a good week and on the exercise, hockney

Your dog will be loving the exercise and exciting wood smells on 5:2 as well, snail
lots of lovely gunge to roll in

Excellent progress that you no longer snack, motherof4
Your DH needs training to say NO to free food
Remind him he can get a jump on the others, if he can advocate all his points while they are guzzling

Exercise often makes little difference to weight loss (people tend to eat more !) but it is important for short & longterm health.
It also improves shape and tones flabby bits.

For you both - and anyone else time-poor - I recommend Mosely's Fat Blasts, which just take a few minutes on 3-5 days per week, see 5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 OP
You don't need equipment, just comfy shoes & clothes. No need even to shower, because you probably won't get sweaty in 4 minutes.
So, no excuses 💪🏻

OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 24/05/2018 11:25

found a menu for where I'm off for lunch today...
what do people reckon is better, Jacket pot, filling and salad or quiche of the day and salad (that's the only options for me) or soup and bread, but its too warm for that Smile

comehomemax · 24/05/2018 11:36

I wasn't sure about the markets drink thing but it's actually really helping take the edge of my hunger. Yum.

comehomemax · 24/05/2018 11:36

marmite

Summer15coming · 24/05/2018 11:39

Well done Smiled, Wreck and Croaking.

My week has been a little off kilter so far.... My NFD's have been well within limit (about 600 under yesterday), but my supposed FD went awry: 737 for the day. I'm now thinking I will do a proper FD tomorrow and then an extra miniFD on Sunday.

WreckTangled · 24/05/2018 11:41

Forty I would have soup Grin but out of the two you asked I would have jacket potato and then a light dinner this evening.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 24/05/2018 11:46

hmmm, maybe i go for soup and get all sweaty Blush thanks wreck

Summer15coming · 24/05/2018 11:54

BCF may I ask you a couple of other related questions?

Firstly, I was wondering what happens re: water retention for those in perimenopause in the months between periods.

Also, (and this question is for any exercise gurus!), I am doing CrossFit three times a week. It isn't intense, but does involve a fair amount of weights. I try to keep the weights at the lower end of what is available, but I'm still a little concerned about building up my shoulders and neck as I do tend to build muscle fairly easily. Is that a fair concern? Do I/can I do anything to mitigate against it?

Summer15coming · 24/05/2018 11:56

Forty - I would also have soup (love the stuff!), but out of your options I would have the jacket potato unless I'm going to make the quiche a real treat meal.

DaisyandTim · 24/05/2018 12:06

Forty I would go for quiche to be different - live the stuff!

DaisyandTim · 24/05/2018 12:06

*love

BigChocFrenzy · 24/05/2018 12:09

summer Fasting should normally release retained water, but can be hindered by poor choices on NFDs
Women can be especially sensitive to this at pre / post- meno:
We simply can't consume the type of food & drink we used too

So, I recommend you look at your diet on NFDs and cut down on booze and junky carbs, especially cake, biscuits, sweets, crisps, deep-fried food

Muscle is normally very positive for shape & health
Your problem may be that you build muscle underneath a layer of fat, possibly in the past increasing fat & muscle together, with the excess calories

So, losing fat will ameliorate the problem of "bulk"
I recommend you mfp for a week and compare your calories for NFD with Mosely‘s TDEE Calc *

(he recommends: any exercisers - set activity level to one below what you think, so set it say as "moderate")

If you really are concerned about too much muscle, then I recommend swapping one of your cross-fit days to 60 minutes of pure aerobics, say running with a few sprints for 5 mins HIIT as well.

Twice per week is sufficient for muscle, even once weekly if you build it easily
So you could swap another day to cycling / swimming

Maybe consider triathlon training or c25k ?
That would trim you down, with leaner longer muscles rather than thicker ones, then just have cross-fit as cross-training

OP posts:
bluerunningshoes · 24/05/2018 12:22

had an unexpected 2mile walk this morning due to train issues. was lovely, just after it had rained.
meeting was fine actually, just with tea (didn't have time to get a bouillon before)

noideawhattocallmyself · 24/05/2018 12:37

argh! Been in a big work meeting - bosses decide to suprise us all with a thank you (very nice - not complaining about that at all :) ) - Pizza lunch!!! A pizza each!!
I've just made some polite excuses and am sat at my desk eating my carefully planned lunch - must not eat free food!!
:D:D

cakegoblin · 24/05/2018 12:39

Checking in for first of my 2 FDs, cannot WAIT for my prawn omelette for dinner, already been for a little run in the sun so feeling virtuous and motivated. It's Wine Time that gets me. Good luck to everyone fasting today!

littleladylawyer · 24/05/2018 12:49

Checking for my second FD- after doing b2b for ages it feels weird to be fasting at this stage of the week! Have chicken breast and leaves for lunch then the same with additional veg for dinner. I'm interested to see if spreading them out helps with overeating at weekends.

fortythree I would have jacket pot with no butter, and try to avoid a cheese/mayo based dressing. Can't stand quiche!

noidea argh- a well meaning but unwanted food present is the worst. We always have people bringing in homemade cakes etc, luckily they don't take it personally if someone declines. Well done for resisting!

badger82 · 24/05/2018 13:43

Today may turn into a mini FD and 16:8 - MFP says 800 cals but may add some potato to my dinner. Seems silly to eat more for the sake of it.

So I had my lunch around 12.30 and have got to try not to snack until dinner time which will be around 7.30/8 once the kids are in bed - marmite drinks at the ready! I've also got some miso soup sachets for 21cals, does anyone use these?

CheshireSplat · 24/05/2018 13:58

noidea that is awesome will-power. Well done. After a bad night's sleep, DB being a pratt and upsetting my DF, and DD2 keeping me awake, I've just come off a 3 hour telephone conference. And I have a headache!!!! So, I'm hitting the...

NFD today. Must be good. Am out tonight at "try a new sport", croquet!!! So that's 3 hours out of the kitchen. Good!

badger I used miso a lot to start with and seem to have forgotten about it, so thanks for the reminder. I used to buy the jar as well.

5:2 Thread No. 77: AARGH ! Frustrated with the grind of daily dieting ? Eat normal food 5 days a week, fast 2 days
BigChocFrenzy · 24/05/2018 14:06

noidea You are a Star
Great free food NSV

An serendipitous mini is an excellent idea, badger

Additional healthy 5:2 rules for NFDs or FDs:

  • if you aren't hungry, then don't eat
  • if you are eating a meal, but are no longer hungry part-way through, then stop eating

Focus on retraining your habits, goblin so you are no longer prompted to think about "wine time" just because it is evening

Your focus hould be on sensible weekends, lawyer NHS alcohol limits and No snacking < you can join in the chant, blossom Wink >

Croquet sounds unusual & fun, cheshire
Good idea to try new activities and expand your horizons

blue That walk sounds ideal for boosting morale on an FD
I'm off now for a similar walk, a round trip to collect my NCIS jim-jams from GLS Smile

OP posts:
badger82 · 24/05/2018 14:57

Miso has hit the spot CheshireSplat. Feeling strong, just another 5 hours of NO SNACKING until dinner time