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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 77: AARGH ! Frustrated with the grind of daily dieting ? Eat normal food 5 days a week, fast 2 days

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 16/05/2018 20:50

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
badger82 · 22/05/2018 21:33

Thanks guys. I'll try the no snacking rule and plan my three meals for my NFDs - I use MFP and normally am disciplined until the afternoon and then it all goes out the window and I simply don't care. Weirdly on fast days this doesn't happen though (which I guess is good!)
I'm on a FD tomorrow but will check in for support on Thursday if I'm wobbling Smile

badger82 · 22/05/2018 21:35

MazDazzle when you do the 16:8 on NFDs what time to/from?

Homemadehopeful · 22/05/2018 22:05

Well done friendly, I can't wait to see my weight starting with a 9!!

Plus like others have said do what works for you. I weigh everyday and log in an app so I can see overall pattern (which funnily enough always peaks on a Monday Grin) but I record weekly weight loss here on Friday morning as that was the day of my first FD so I think of it as the start of my FD week. I usually fast Fri & Mon.

I have been sooo hungry today! Does stress burn calories? wishful thinking I know but we can dream I have had such a crazy few days with trying to get ready for holiday and a stressful time at work, which is quite rare for me. I came homeearly afternoon and could of just eaten piles but then started logging it all in mfp so that stopped me. Think I will have ended today at around 1700 which is not too bad as I did swim too. Hopefully I won't feel like eating everything in sight tomorrow!! Also think my brain is already in holiday mode, wanting ice cream and wine!!

MazDazzle · 22/05/2018 22:30

I try not to eat before 12pm on NFD badger, so it’s usually 12-8pm or 1-9pm. If I start the day with breakfast, I skip lunch instead. That’s if I’m being virtuous and all’s going to plan! Wink

Naughtysausage · 22/05/2018 22:47

Ending day 2 of a surprise B2B on 603. Not too bad but I have to admit I was much hungrier today than a normal FD. Not sure the B2B will be a common occurrence!

I'm noticing that my décolletage is looking decidedly bony. The rest of me is not. I don't really want a bony chest. Is more protein and push ups the obvious answer? I've still got quite a soft pad on my stomach and inner thighs so I still want to shift a bit more fat. Suggestions on a postcard please.

MirrorMirror21 · 22/05/2018 23:10

Proud of myself today. Having to stay up really late to do uni work (still ploughing on.. why oh why do I leave everything to the last minute). A book review on child molestation, so not the nicest topic. Usually I'd be munching massive bags of sweets and chocolate to get me through.

But today I've managed to do a FD, AND the shred. And written a couple of thousand words. House is a tip, but can worry about that another day Grin

Decided I'm going to do a mini FD tomorrow, and definitely no snacking. Another FD Thursday and then will fast Friday until dinner time where I'm planning on having something really yummy (though not decided what yet) and wine to reward myself for giving this horrible review in.

Well done fasters. I don't post that much but read this thread religiously; you all motivate me so much.

BigChocFrenzy · 22/05/2018 23:32

Well done on an opportunist FD, Naughty
Now you've nailed your FDs for the week, but be sensible if you have 5 consecutive NFDs.

Unfortunately, it is very individual where you lose fat first.
However, to lose waist fat, cut right back on sugar & alcohol, because their excess cals are preferentially stored around your middle

Well done on nailing a tough FD, Mirror with that horrid work to do
and on Shredding - vigorous exercise can often help mood, so that was a good idea.

Focus on your holiday, homemade and visualise how you'll enjoy a leaner bod.

badger If you problem is afternoon & evening, that strongly suggests the issue may be snacks / grazing
Try to think what triggers this

  • are you prepping food & nibbling bits, or eating DC leftovers ? Institute a hands-off policy until your meal is on the tale
  • do you sit down then in front of the Box, or a games console ? Try a quick exercise video, like Shred. Make a rule only to eat at the table and savour your meal, also never to eat in front of the Idiot Box
  • is it boredom eating ? as above, do something useful
  • does it include a lot of sweet crap, crisps and / or booze ? Keep to no snacking rule and to NHS alcohol limits, because booze also worsens the munchies
OP posts:
Clutterfreeintraining · 23/05/2018 05:02

Morning everyone!
My favourite thing about post-FD? Waking up ridiculously early (possibly from hunger!!). As a night owl, waking up early, without my 4 alarms, is such a revelation Grin. Off for my swim in an hour and I’m just debating whether to have breakfast or not. It’s my birthday today and I’ve already planned to have a ham and cheese toastie for lunch and there will be cake this evening. Trying not to blow it!!

What are people’s thoughts on homemade smoothies? I know it’s better to eat fruit/veg in its original form but it’s not so easy to convince 15yr old ds this Hmm.

WreckTangled · 23/05/2018 07:20

Happy birthday clutter!
Fd today for me.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 23/05/2018 07:24

Happy birthday clutter Flowers
Welcome all the newbies and well done to everyone on their fds yesterday, especially mirror, that sounds tough!!!

I spent 2.5 hours trying to get home yesterday in the train chaos (honestly, how can these companies be so inept) my journey normally takes 45mins door to door - so I ended up having a lovely cool G&T and a small glass of leftover fizz Grin Mini fd today, nowt for breakfast, salad of some description for lunch and a lovely prawn omelette for dinner as your pic looked delicious lamb

Good luck to all the b2b'ers and fasters today.... stay strong

BigChocFrenzy · 23/05/2018 07:35

Happy birthday, clutter Thanks
Enjoy your day

Homemade smoothies are better than no veg and veg is essential, but Mosely advises against more than 2 portions fruit daily
Choose a smoothie recipe with 1-2 portions fruit plus a portion of veg

The old trick of pureeing veg in a pasta sauce is also useful
As are raw veg sticks with say a tzatziki dip

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 23/05/2018 07:37

What a tiresome joirney, 43
Chill today if you can and enjoy your miniFD menu

Good luck on your FD, wreck and all the other fasters

OP posts:
Iamblossom · 23/05/2018 07:42

Morning all.

5 pounds off from my B2B.

Now just need to be sensible and not put it all back on again.

SmiledWithTheRisingSun · 23/05/2018 07:42

Morning all,
FD2 here - am supposed to be having lunch with my boss - I don't know how I'm going to get around this one 😬

Happy Birthday Clutter!
I would try a fruit salad instead of a smoothie - but you can always add stuff to smoothies to lower the gi - like peanut butter / also sometimes I add probiotics to my kid's smoothies - you can also make them with almond milk / plain yoghurt or maybe even squeeze some veg in there?
Enjoy your cake 🎂 x

Iamblossom · 23/05/2018 07:42

Happy Birthday clutter hope it's not a FD?

calzone · 23/05/2018 07:52

I love waking up knowing it’s a NFD!!!

Plan is cereal, fruit and yoghurt.
Eggs and smoked salmon for lunch
Pasta with broccoli and pesto for dinner
Plus another portion of vegetables somewhere.

bluerunningshoes · 23/05/2018 08:05

smiles you could tell them that you need to have bloods taken and therefore can't eat?
or just tell that you are fasting today for health reasons.
my colleagues yesterday were fine with that - didn't stop them ordering chips the most deliciously smelling food

Homemadehopeful · 23/05/2018 08:05

Happy birthday Clutter Cake Flowers

Am planning on a mini today and tomorrow I am going to aim for just a light salad at lunchtime so I can save all my calories for dinner at a nice gastro pub en route to Kent. A friend who lives in Surrey is also joining us for dinner so will be a lovely start to the hols and if I know I have around 1400 cals in the bag I can enjoy it guilt free!

Have a good day all and good luck to those fasting Smile

calzone · 23/05/2018 08:05

Ok.....so.....

I had a gain over the weekend and fasted on Sunday and Tuesday.

I’ve now lost the gain and I’m back to 12 stone which is marvellous.

What do I do now? NFD all week or another fast day on Thursday? It seems a long way to go without fasting until Monday.

Help please. 💐

SmiledWithTheRisingSun · 23/05/2018 08:13

Not worried about telling them I'm fasting bluerunning - just worried about my willpower!

badger82 · 23/05/2018 08:30

MazDazzle do you do 16:8 after a FD? I can't imagine skipping breakfast the morning after!

Good tips Choc. Definitely grazing, boredom, stress, prepping kids meals etc all a factor - I've got into bad habits and it's so annoying when I invest so much time into meal planning, prepping, logging etc but when I get in a snacking mood I can't seem to stop myself. I need a absolute zero tolerance approach to snacks maybe as FDs work - nothing goes in mouth....simple!

Good luck Fasters today!

calzone · 23/05/2018 08:32

Badger.....try a cup of hot marmite.

It really helps.

badger82 · 23/05/2018 08:50

Calzone - boiling water and marmite? Ok! Will do

MirrorMirror21 · 23/05/2018 08:54

Happy birthday Clutter Grin enjoy your cake.

calzone · 23/05/2018 08:58

Badger.....yes.....simple as that.

It keeps you going from about 4pm - 6.30 or when fatigue and cravings kick in.