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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 77: AARGH ! Frustrated with the grind of daily dieting ? Eat normal food 5 days a week, fast 2 days

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 16/05/2018 20:50

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
plus3 · 22/05/2018 15:12

Thanks everyone - was inspired by the thought of prawn omelette....it was delicious, so that and an apple later will be me done for the day.

Out of interest, when do you record your weekly weight? At the moment I tend to be fasting Tues/ Thurs and always weighed myself on a Monday. It doesn’t have to be after a FD does it?

Naughtysausage · 22/05/2018 15:46

Plus I weigh daily. But I measure my weekly loss on a Thursday as that's the day I started - usually I fast Monday and Friday.

Question for you all - I forgot my purse today so no lunch. I'm currently sitting at 386 calories for the day, so I turn it into a b2b with yesterday's FD? Is that better than treating today as a mini and having another FD later in the week??

Iamblossom · 22/05/2018 16:01

naughty I'd go for a b2b personally then come tomorrow morning you are DONE. (Looking forward to that myself)

Naughtysausage · 22/05/2018 16:05

Ha! Sold. Will have a little soup for tea and look forward to the rest of my week! (As much as you can with an exam on Friday) Hmm

forcookssake · 22/05/2018 16:20

Hi, I'm joining you all!
I began 4:3 last week and although I really noticed how hungry I was on the FDs, I stuck to it Smile
I'm at BMI 41 currently, so plenty go at...
Hope everyone's finding it manageable! Flowers

calzone · 22/05/2018 16:39

I’m fasting again today to see if I can lose the gain from this weekend.

I’ve had nothing but water and marmite drink all day.

Bought a ready meal for dinner from M&S and will have broccoli with it.

WreckTangled · 22/05/2018 17:20

NFD here but am coming in at 983 so I'm calling it a mini.

Iamblossom · 22/05/2018 18:51

Yum

5:2 Thread No. 77: AARGH ! Frustrated with the grind of daily dieting ? Eat normal food 5 days a week, fast 2 days
Iamblossom · 22/05/2018 18:55

Yeah baby

5:2 Thread No. 77: AARGH ! Frustrated with the grind of daily dieting ? Eat normal food 5 days a week, fast 2 days
5:2 Thread No. 77: AARGH ! Frustrated with the grind of daily dieting ? Eat normal food 5 days a week, fast 2 days
SmiledWithTheRisingSun · 22/05/2018 19:20

Plus3 I weigh myself the morning after FD2 as am always lightest then.

Iamblossom · 22/05/2018 19:23

I weigh the morning of my first fd and the morning after my second. Obviously prefer the second reading.

B2B done. 650 x 2

calzone · 22/05/2018 19:31

293 calories for meal plus 50 calories for sugar snap peas and 130 calories for fruit.

Pretty pleased with that.

bluerunningshoes · 22/05/2018 19:32

kitchen closed at 550
still hungry
have a nice fresh lemon balm tea brewing to help until bedtime

SmiledWithTheRisingSun · 22/05/2018 19:37

Thanks for the body brush link quacking Smile

badger82 · 22/05/2018 20:25

So I'm new to this thread. I am on week 2 of 5:2 and have successfully completed three fast days so far with another tomorrow. I'm trying to stick to 1700 cals on NFDs but seem unable to do it. Why is it that I have the discipline for 500 but not for 1700. It's illogical. I did lose weight lAst week but want to feel in control on the other days too

BigChocFrenzy · 22/05/2018 21:00

snail Under 2hr for your half Star - that's an excellent PB, especially for a middle-aged late starter
Don't worry if you don't match that next race, after your injury. You can go for it the next time.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 22/05/2018 21:00

Welcome, Honky Smile and good luck on your 1st FD

Tips for FDs

  • Glug a teasp Marmite on its own, mid-morning & mid-afternoon, to help avoid headaches or weak feeling. It replenishes salt & minerals while your body adapts to fasting
  • Do NOT snack / graze or eat fruit on its own. Eat meals.
  • Most folk just have coffee / tea for breakfast, then either divide calories into lunch & supper, or save nearly all for a good supper
  • Base meals on protein, masses of veg and optiinally a small portion carbs. Recipe links & ideas under the "How to Start" section of the OP

Best tip for NFDs:
No snacking between meals, even fruit
Have fruit, nuts also lattes, alcohol, crisps, cake, other treats - but only as part of a meal.

OP posts:
calzone · 22/05/2018 21:13

I stuck to all those rules for a fast day BCF and I went to Pilates.

💪🏻💪🏻💪🏻👍🏻

BigChocFrenzy · 22/05/2018 21:17

Congrats on your SV, ghost and your milestone of seeing 9 stone something

Well done on avoiding the team chips, blue and focusing on your FD

naughty Go for the b2b if you can. Serendipity Smile

Welcome, badger Smile
What helps on NFDs are good 5:2 habits:

  • NO snacking / grazing between meals. Have any fruit, treats, alcohol, lattes etc only with meals
  • Be sensible about amount of treats, e.g. aim for one sensible portion on say 3 NFDs weekly, so none on 2 NFDs
  • Keep within NHS alcohol limits
  • Drink lots of water - start ecah day with a glass and keep water with you

Welcome, cook Smile
Several 5:2ers started at BMI 40+
What helps is to divide your final goal into mini-goals, e.g. every 5 lb, 5kg, stone and major milestones of dropping into a lower BMI class

plus When you weigh, important to do so under consistent conditions
So, ideally, 1st thing in the morning after FD2, naked, after loo, but before eating or drinking anything
Scales always in the same place, on a level, hard surface, not carpet

honky & any other newbies starting tomorrow:
Tomorrow, I recommend you take your baseline, so you can monitor progress later
So, weigh 1st thing, as above to plus
Also, measure waist at narrowest point (usually 2" above navel for women), hips and anywhere else you want to reduce.

OP posts:
CheshireSplat · 22/05/2018 21:23

Hi Badger I'm still struggling with this 6 months in!!!!! Not to put you off, sorry. I'll second BCF 's not snacking rule, it makes all the difference.

The problem for me on my NFDs is I have misinterpreted it to mean eat what I like and I only need to work hard on FDs. I'm 40, 5'3" and a stone overweight and I can't completely relax on NFDs.

You'll see from this thread tho, that this WOL does work tho! Welcome!

BigChocFrenzy · 22/05/2018 21:23

Well done on nailing your FD, calzone, blue, blossom

blue & and other fasters feeling very hungry:
Drink water, then clean your teeth & use mouthwash - this gives a fresh taste and genuinely discourages nibbling.
Then have an early night - maybe pamper yourself with a hot bath and personal maintenance - nails, shave etc

Have an early night, wreck and I hope you feel better in the morning - maybe you ate something dodgy, or too rich / spicy / acidic ?

OP posts:
WreckTangled · 22/05/2018 21:25

BCF I have gastroparesis (mild) so I think it's that. I had 50/50 bread so maybe too much fibre? Honestly I sometimes feel like I can't win! I was ok a few hours later though and enjoyed a tasty dinner Smile am in bed now!

BigChocFrenzy · 22/05/2018 21:26

Although many 5:2ers can just "eat normally" on NFDs,
those who have been quite overweight a long time probably need to retrain their "normal"

Some folk find this happens naturally if they follow the above 5:2 healthy rules.
Others find they need to mfp for a week, as a reality check and then sometimes use mfp as training wheels for a few weeks.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 22/05/2018 21:27

Good to hear you are better, wreck
The bread sounds healthy, but maybe next time halve the portion size

OP posts:
MazDazzle · 22/05/2018 21:33

Whatever works for you plus. I record my weight the morning after my second FD.

I was body brushing religiously smiled and wasn’t sure if I could notice a difference. Then I stopped and now I have skin like an eliphant’s hide! Let us know how you get on with it.

Sailed through today’s FD (day 2 of b2b). I found it easier than yesterday’s. Had chicken breast stuffed with cream cheese and wrapped in bacon with rocket and cucumber.

I really need to start making myself more accountable on NFDs. 16:8 works well for me when I’m in the zone. That’s my aim for tomorrow.

Good luck tomorrow Honky!

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