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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 77: AARGH ! Frustrated with the grind of daily dieting ? Eat normal food 5 days a week, fast 2 days

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 16/05/2018 20:50

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
DaisyandTim · 23/05/2018 09:42

Calzone I always treat my weeks as running Monday to Sunday so in your case I would probably fast again on Thursday and then do 2 the following week - however I've only been back on this for 2 days so may be talking out of my backside Grin

DaisyandTim · 23/05/2018 09:43

Happy birthday Clutter Cake

CheshireSplat · 23/05/2018 10:31

Calzone , like Daisy I think a week starts on a Monday. I wouldn't worry about the odd extra FD. The problem will come if you are having to do it regularly to compensate for eating too much on a NFD, because you won't change long term habits and like any diet, the weight will go back on when you stop.

I know it all in theory, just need to actually do it!!!!

I'm on FD2 of the week. Was a little peckish when I woke but no worse now, 3 1/2 hours later. Off to have an infusion. I've been used to B2Bs recently, so something will have to give on normal FDs to lose those extra 150 calories and I think it has to be the copious cups of tea (with milk) that I drink.

littleladylawyer · 23/05/2018 12:53

Happy birthday clutter! Enjoy the cake.

sausage I have the same issue, the times I've been slim enough to like my stomach and waist my chest and legs have been hideously bony. I'm trying to use strength training to sculpt a more balanced shape as I don't want to lose any more weight.

Well done on the losses blossom and calzone.

I had a good fd on Monday and planning a second tomorrow. Have a work social event though so going to drive to prevent any wine related slip ups, and split my cals between lunch and dinner to head off canapé munching. Hopefully it won't go on too late!

CheshireSplat · 23/05/2018 12:59

Hey blossom keep meaning to check. You are i am blossom aren't you, not lamb lossom ? Nothing to do with fasting? As you were, everyone! Just cos a few people call you lamb and I want to check I'm not calling you the wrong thing?

Iamblossom · 23/05/2018 13:39

Ha ha yes I Am Blossom... Grin

calzone · 23/05/2018 14:17

I prefer Lamb Lossom actually.......

Ok....so I will fast again tomorrow and be good over the weekend.

Today

Cereal with fruit and yoghurt
Scrambled eggs with smoked salmon and baked beans
Tin mandarin oranges
Fat free yoghurt

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 23/05/2018 15:11

oops I think i always call you lamb Grin

Mini fd and so far so good, beautiful sunshine though and I'm fighting hard to resist the urge to have a social ale in the garden later - wish I could disassociate sunshine from alcohol Confused

WreckTangled · 23/05/2018 15:32

FD going well. Avoided kfc and McDonald's. Have managed all day up until now, had to have two jelly babies otherwise it would be illegal for me to drive as my sugar level was dipping. I'll ignore those calories so I don't feel disheartened Grin

snailhunter · 23/05/2018 15:53

Hah, I am another lamb mistaker! Right, from now on it's blossom

badger82 · 23/05/2018 16:07

FD going well, about to have hot marmite and watch an episode of The Crown while the baby sleeps Smile

Naughtysausage · 23/05/2018 16:13

Ladylawyer how is the strength training going? Are you seeing a difference? I normally just run so I feel a bit clueless and hesitant about how to start. I don't want to just throw a few press ups in but I'm not sure I can fork out for a PT.

Clutter Happy birthday! Hope the cake is delicious! Cake

And thank you OP will definitely watch these NFD's like a hawk. 5 days seems awfully long. But I'm approaching goal weight with more than a month to go before my self imposed deadline so will treat this week like an experiment.

calzone · 23/05/2018 16:54

Marmite drink is stopping my snacking.

PopGoesTheWeaz · 23/05/2018 17:01

Naughty I'm a runner too but was thinking of "just throwing a few pressups in" Grin as I can't fathom having to coordinate another thing in my life. I was thinking something like a press-up challenge or tricep dips. I really want something like to c25k but for above the waist and something that won't take more than 5-10 minute as otherwise it will cut into my running time.

Think I may be asking too much if i want results but with really minumum effort. Blush

HonkyWonkWoman · 23/05/2018 17:08

First day of 5/2 and made it a FD.
Looked at recipes and made a Chunky Muligatawny Soup for lunch, was very tasty and filling.
Just had a Marmite drink!
Have put a chicken in oven and will have some with lots of veg later on.
Just caught up with thread! Love it and all you lovely people on here!
Thanks for getting me going again!

littleladylawyer · 23/05/2018 17:13

sausage it's only been a few weeks since I started but I'm seeing a difference. My arms look more toned, my pancake bum is slightly peachier, my stomach is flatter and my boobs are a bit perkier!

I use a dvd for a 20 min total body workout with press ups, crunches, planks and that sort of thing, then find a heavier weightlifting workout online for either upper or lower body, so weighted squats, shoulder presses etc. The only equipment I have is a mat and DHs adjustable dumbbells! In total takes between 30-40 mins and I'm trying to do 5 days per week.

I was very weak and useless at first but am getting stronger quite quickly, and just increase the weight when anything starts to feel too comfortable. Hope that helps!

Iamblossom · 23/05/2018 17:24

I honestly don't mind what you call me. Grin. Within reason of course...Wink

So my nfd today after my b2b and I am STARVING

Had Greek yog berries seeds and an apple and a banana for breakfast
3 egg ham omelette with salad for lunch

DH is making a turkey chilli for tea but I am Hank Marvin now and we won't eat for hours!!!!

noideawhattocallmyself · 23/05/2018 18:09

FD today and kitchen closed at 520 - still TOTM and now I'm full of cold so feeling proper sorry for myself! bed early I think....
well done of the losses calzone / blossom / anyone I've missed
and well done on getting started again Honky.

WreckTangled · 23/05/2018 18:10

I'm on 385 and might leave it there (and that's including my jelly babies!).

BigChocFrenzy · 23/05/2018 18:19

Well done on your SV, blossom
Now focus this weekend on being sensible and you can keep most of it

calzone I agree that an FD or mini might be wise, either Thursday or Friday
but try to focus on NFDs; especially get in the habit of more moderate weekends,
to avoid having to compensate with extra FDs

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 23/05/2018 18:22

Medicinal jelly-babies Wink
Never calorie count meds, wreck
Sounds a very good FD anyway

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 23/05/2018 18:31

That's another good FD for you, noidea
struggling through your cold and totm, poor you
Definitely have an early night if you can, to let your body sort itself out

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 23/05/2018 18:38

For those wanting to start strength training / lifting

This helps firm up flabby bits and improve shape. Also good for your health.
Even if you are primarily a runner, I recommend strength cross-training 1-2 x weekly, for all-round fitness

If you are short of time, I recommend starting with Mosely's Fat Blasts, which just take a few minutes, 3-5 days per week, see 5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 OP
or with Shred - if you like a video - only 20 mons and part 1 is still free online

If anyone just wants a training plan to do independently at home, to your own music, why not post a bit about yourself & your aims on the exercise thread and I can suggest a personalised plan.

OP posts:
cakegoblin · 23/05/2018 20:25

Ooh will check out the Mosely's fat blasts, thank you! Loving the inspiration on here - tomorrow I will mostly be trying calzone's marmite drinks and I have got some prawns in for first ever prawn omelette tomorrow night, thanks iamblossom. Husband who likes neither prawns nor eggs will be scandalized but scales finally caught up with me this morning and I have lost 10lb overall so feeling pretty damn motivated! Last nfd before my b2b fast days here, have been avoiding sugar for weeks anyway and had healthy carb-free dinner but am currently absolutely starving, much more so than on my fast days and the feeling is not going away as it normally has. 300 cals to go to my TDEE - considering greek yoghurt, honey and banana to get rid of this hunger! :)

calzone · 23/05/2018 20:30

So, marmite drink at 4.30 and then I did homemade chicken nuggets and salad for dinner with a small vodka and slimline tonic.

And a ripple.

But I’ve not now binged into chocolate and I’m having another early night.

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