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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 77: AARGH ! Frustrated with the grind of daily dieting ? Eat normal food 5 days a week, fast 2 days

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 16/05/2018 20:50

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
BigChocFrenzy · 22/05/2018 08:42

That was a good FD, Homemade
I hope HomemadeDog is better today.

Good luck, blue, blossom and all the Tuesday fasters

duck sounds like your eating habits have been transformed, which is a great NSV
When you said you had an indulgent few days before the 9lb blip, is that just portion size ?
Anyway, don't worry, so long as you keep tackling any blip so promptly, you should be fine.

OP posts:
Iamblossom · 22/05/2018 08:49

Chiropractor booked for 10.30 BCF. Have been to her before but hoping she can help this time. Am so jealous of the running talk and desperate to get back to it. Particularly in this amazing weather.

CheshireSplat · 22/05/2018 08:51

Morning all. Wanted to say thanks all for all the handholding yesterday. I do think this thread helps keep me from jacking it all in.

I was 2.5 lbs lighter this morning, which has helped my mood enormously. In addition, I have logged breakfast and lunch on MFP already and met Jillian, Anita and Nad-a-leeeee to do the 30 day shred this morning.

Good luck to all FDers, B2Bers today.

BigChocFrenzy · 22/05/2018 08:56

snail FDs on your restdays could work, but you probably need to make them 800 cal FDs
If you feel sub-par on that, then that would indicate your body needs more nourishment to recover from the previous days' hard training.

16:8, like 5:2, depends on a weekly deficit to lose weight , so that usually means daily 16:8 with a daily deficit
( even without loss, you still get the fasting benefits re body composition, helping IBS, asthma, PCOS etc)

You might find the training for long events, in combination with a daily gentle 14:10, would be sufficient to gradually trim the remaining 3lb
or you might find you can't manage a weekly calorie deficit and train to the standard you wish; hence settle for maintenance until after the event.

As you say, you need to tweak your WOE according to your aims, training progress and energy levels etc

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 22/05/2018 09:00

Well done on your SV, cheshire Just at the right time to boost your spirits Smile

Very good that you've started your mfp week
That will give the information you need, on which habits to tweak, to get the most bang for your calorie buck.

OP posts:
MirrorMirror21 · 22/05/2018 09:05

Hi everyone! Had a busy weekend and went a little over TDEE, but was still well under TDEE not including fast days. Lost an lb over the week overall, but I'm a bit disappointed as I'm back over the stone weight loss I was so excited about last week (I weigh most days).

Then again, I haven't had a FD since Thursday. Am having one today so hopefully the scales go back down tomorrow.

Got a book review to write for uni today so hopefully that will keep me busy. Going to do the shred after dropping DD at nursery.

plus3 · 22/05/2018 09:11

Hello everyone
I started 5:2 at the beginning of May as at 5ft 8 I found myself weighing 12st 10lb which really wasn’t suitable.
My DH is keen to support me with this as he really likes this way of eating, but I was initially reluctant as I have Ulcerative Colitis (which is in remission due to to some hard core drugs..) when I am unwell I can easily lose 2 stone ...but I am hideously unwell so the loss is not welcome. Conversely, the fact I weigh more means my gut is in a good place which is technically good..... I really don’t want a complicated relationship with food.

However...I have given this a try and today I weigh 12stone 4lb and am feeling better about it all. I have been using MFP to log everything & it is clear that I am snacking too much & with the wrong things!

I aim for 1700-1800 on NFDs and last week (with 2 FDs) my daily average was 1459....does that sound about right? At the moment I would just like to get back to a BMI of 25 which is 11st 10lb.

I am fasting today & so far have found the FDs fairly easy to get through... lots of water & I try to for as long as possible before eating.
Any advice gratefully received - you all seem to doing so well Smile

HonkyWonkWoman · 22/05/2018 09:23

Hi everyone! Just spotted this thread and hoping it will help me lose a few stone. Went to SW and lost 10% but have piled it all back on, and so fed up and annoyed with myself, I can't seem to get going again.
I start off thinking healthy food every morning and then spoil it again.
Thinking of the 5/2, can you help me with what to eat on the fast days.
And how to actually get going on it.

FriendlyGhost · 22/05/2018 09:54

Good luck to all today’s fasters. A nfd for me today but I have done the shred and the scales started with a 9 this morning for the first time in 4 years. That’s 1/2 a stone in a month on this so i’m delighted.
Honky I find it easier to save most of my calories until the evening. Eating during the day makes me hungrier but different things work for different people I think. I’ve been having either a tofu stir fry (tofu and lots of veg), omelette and salad or Greek salad with homemade tzatzaki (full fat Greek yoghurt with grated cucumber, herbs and garlic) for dinner on FDs.

quackingduck222 · 22/05/2018 10:06

Smiled - this is the body brush I’ve got.
https://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hydrea-Professional-Dry-Skin-Body-Brush-with-Cactus-Bristles-Hard-Strength-NEW-I/112952780850?trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20180213162448%26meid%3D0eb6700cb5eb41158334915a77af3766%26pid%3D100930%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D8%26mehot%3Dag%26sd%3D263437220784%26itm%3D112952780850&&_trksid=p2056116.c100930.m5375

Snail - that’s very interesting thanks. I really would love to break the 2 hr barrier and think that will be my next goal when the weather cools down.

BCF - I think the blip was due to DHs birthday. Big Indian meal out and the biggest chocolate cake that I made. It was actually 2 full size 8 inch cakes sandwiches together with 2 tubs of buttercream and a big bar of chocolate melted on top and cream. Ah it was worth it and not a everyday occurrence. Apart from that I’m very good now. No takeaways we used to have 2 a week. And every meal half my plate is veg before I would go days without any.

Cheshire- this thread most definitely helps keep us accountable. I see it like a virtual slimming club without having to pay and stand in a village hall.

Mirror - if your weighing daily you do need to take it with a pinch of salt as it does show every fluctuation. On my weight app I use 2 profiles daily and weekly and they both tell very different stories the daily graph is all over the place. The weekly was a downward trend (a few blips) and now its pretty level as I’m on maintenance.

Plus - hello and welcome, definitely re read the opening post as it has some very good information especially snacking. No snacking EVER combine it with a meal as it then becomes quite difficult to over eat.
Congrats on your weight loss so far that’s fantastic and you will smash your goal.
The weight loss on this way of life is fantastic and many of us have changed our goals to go lower and to weights previously we’ve never beloved was physically possible.

Honky - Hello and welcome, FDs are whatever you fancy really I would suggest high protein low carb meals personally as I find it keeps you feel fuller for longer.
My FDs would normally contain a few eggs, ham, tomatoes cucumber and salad as you can have a very large meal. Or 4 egg omlette with ham mushrooms and salad.
Sometimes I’d have turkey / chicken with a huge portion of mixed peppers. Or fish & veg. Used wisely 500 Cals can go very far, if you haven’t download My fitness pal as this makes it much easier to track cals. Also especially your FDs make sure you drink lots.

Iamblossom · 22/05/2018 10:07

Honky I tend to also save the bulk of my cals for the evening meal so I don't go to bed starving.

A typical FD for me is:

0% greek yog
4 water crackers

Prawn omelette with salad

quackingduck222 · 22/05/2018 10:07

Friendly - congratulations on your SV, and well done on loosing 1/2 stone fantastic stuff.

noideawhattocallmyself · 22/05/2018 10:09

Good luck everyone today. I've been feeling really down and like I'll never lose this weight - have read through all this thread and it's just hit me this is TOTM talking! feel bloated, down, hungry, want chocolate - all TOTM messing with me head.
So - going to use the combined strength of all of you who've been here and battled this and crack on :) FD tomorrow and I'm going to MFP on NFD so I don't get too disheartened and blow all my loss so far.

BigChocFrenzy · 22/05/2018 11:33

Welcome, plus3 Smile
All you need to know is in the OP, especially in the "How to Start" section

Most important tip:
No snacking between meals, EVER

Eat meals. nothing between, not even "healthy" snacks like fruit
If you want treats - which includes lattes, alcohol, cake, crisps etc - or even if you want fruit, have them as part of a meal

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 22/05/2018 11:37

noidea Totm hormonal,swimgs can be a bugger for mood & bloat Thanks
Stay focused, avoid the hormone-driven totm munchies and the bloat will disappear with your 1st FD after totm ends, so often a nice whoosh the next weigh-in.

OP posts:
Borris · 22/05/2018 11:40

Day 2 of b2b. I caved and weighed myself (not first thing and not naked!). Was 71.8kg. 72.5 last week so feeling motivated so far.

Good luck everyone else.

snailhunter · 22/05/2018 11:41

quacking My half marathon PB is 1hr 59 mins 10 secs! I was so proud to get that, especially as I am 44 and only started running four years ago. Before then, I'd never done any running at all. I started with Couch to 5k. That programme is so fantastic and I'd hugely recommend it to anyone here thinking about running.

lamb I know what you mean. I haven't been able to run due to injury this past month and it has been so frustrating! Fingers crossed the weather will hold...

Welcome newbies! As bcf says, do read all the info upthread. I found reading past threads really useful as well to get a sense of the real-world way 5:2 works.

CheshireSplat · 22/05/2018 13:13

no idea well done for hanging on in there. You were me yesterday and today I'm much happier! Like the hunger on a FD, the mood swings come and go. Sorry, I think I have actually now gone doolally

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 22/05/2018 13:59

NFD going well today :) skipped breakfast and then had chicken, tomatoes and cucumber for lunch followed by full fat greek yog and grapes [yum]

Excellent news cheshire that's a great loss Grin
mirror well done on the loss and hopefully more to come after your next FD
Welcome plus and honky
Fab SV ghost how lovely to be in the 9's
noidea totm is a bitch, just wait for the whoosh after it Grin
Fab SV borris

Loads of treats in the kitchen at work today but i'm ignoring them...

bluerunningshoes · 22/05/2018 14:06

phew - survived team lunch on a cup of bouillon (chips never smelled better)
looking forward to dinner - 5 hours away

Iamblossom · 22/05/2018 14:12

have had 5 water crackers and 0% greek yog with blueberries so far.

A gruelling chiropractor session, who found pain in places I didn't know I had Hmm, and walked the dog for half and hour.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 22/05/2018 14:30

ouch lamb hope you get to the root of your problem soon

Iamblossom · 22/05/2018 14:32

thanks 40 - she even got into the muscles under my rib cage at the front of my diaphragm!

WreckTangled · 22/05/2018 14:34

I feel really bloated and sick after my lunch. Didn't even have that much

HonkyWonkWoman · 22/05/2018 14:38

Thanks for the welcome and advice!
Feel motivated already, I will read up on How to Start and start my first FD tomorrow!
Yay!!!!